So im at some club my friend co-runs and im playing on his money (no ****ing chance im playing that high with my own, but anyways)... Villain in question is apparently some canadian WPT winner that htey call "shampoo". Does anyone know who that is?

Im dealt A Q in mid position.

Folded to me, i raise to 20. Villain calls. SB calls.

(pot: 65)

Flop: J 5 2

SB bets 5. I raise to 60. Villain calls. SB folds.

(pot: 190)

Turn: J

???

More to come based on what i did. My stack was 320 and he had me covered.

well, that depends on what sb does.

I'm not sure what the sb's weak lead represents. do you have any reads on him? would he weak lead with a set hoping for a reraise? think he's just on a club draw?

I've never played 5/5 nl before so I don't know.

forget my post. i didn't see where sb folded.

No, the SB folded to his raise, so he's first to act after the turn.

I have two schools of thought here. One of them is my wussy side, and it tells me to check and see what Villain does, but that's weak and probably not the best play.

The other side of me says to bet 100-120, and see what the villain does. At this point, I figure if he's got the jacks he'd probably re-raise. I wouldn't be surprised to see him with JQ or JK here.

bleh. we don't have enough info on this hand to really provide any insight.

OP.

How much did you start hand with, and villian? I see you say your stack was 320. Was that at the begging of hand? Try to remember how much villian had to. All that is important.

- Jordan

I already said. He had me covered.

Ok. so he has 325?

It's a big difference if he has say $400 than $1500.

Both have you covered. But both make play on turn different.

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but what I'll say regardless is this on the turn.

There should only be a few hans villian will call such a large raise with on the flop.

1) a set

2) some kind of nasty draw which he thinks may be good. like...34c...but do to the action preflop it's hard to say.

3) AJ/KJ/QJ - of these three only AJ should/could make the call on the flop.

That's about it. Unless he is going to try and bluff you on this river, I have no idea how you could except to be ahead. And if you do bet anything near the pot, you'll be committed. So, if I bet, I'm not folding to an all in, cause I'll be leading strong.

But I'd think, in most cases you should either c/f, or c/c a reasonable bet if you think your draw is live.

otherwise, this should be an easy hand to get away from as you are playing OOP with A high flush draw on a paired board.

- Jordan

The most liely scenarios that the villain will have is a) a strong jack a set and now a full or c) a flush draw also d) some sort of pocket pair from9's up to aa which aa and kk are unlikely but something like qq is definitely a possibility

more than likely you are way behind in this hand but the one thing you have to realize is that a lot of players with the hands above will mistakingly check behind you if you check. if they have a jack they may check triyng to get a pocket pair to bet the river, if they have a full they will probably check (either way your dead), if they have a pocket pair or a flush draw tehy may check fearing you have a jack.

So the only situation that is beneficial to a push/large bet is a pocket pair or a smaller flush draw which will most likely fold to your bet. But if you check and the player gives you a free card you may get the chance to break him if he has the most likely j or even big pocket pair. I guess though it all boils down to your read on this player, would he slow play a big pair or would he re-raise, what kind of hands would he call with that large bet on the flop all those things should dictate your decision as to what to do.

It doesnt make any difference at all if we're heads up and he knows how much i have.

Checking is weak.

He's a good player too. He'd put you on missed overs or a scared overpair and by checking you can allow him to outplay you.

I like leading about 100-120, as another poster suggested. This will show that you still mean business, and it puts the villain in a more precarious situation where he now has to have balls of steel to outplay you.

If you get raised, you have to let it go. Drawing dead is -EV.

lol, thats great.

lets put over, or half, our stack in the pot then fold if we are raised....how is 'that' not weak?

the board pairs...that already kills an out. the board pairs, we may be drawing dead...

I'm either moving all in on this turn (or betting enough to show I'm not folding to any re-raise, like 3/4 the pot, or the size of the pot), or check folding, and a lot will depend on my read.

a check/call is optional, but I'm not so sure here...if it's the optimal play @ all.

and I can't believe you dont think 'his' stack size matters here OP. That's rediculous.

- Jordan

I thought the stack sizes were a bit bigger, so it changes whether we should fold to a raise on the turn. It's closer then you give it credit for though, there just aren't many hands that we have odds against that the villain would raise on this turn given the action thus far.

And yes, 3/4 pot bet was what I was getting at but the math didn't add up correctly. My apologies.

You would have a pre-conceived check/fold plan against this opponent with a hand that could have as many as 15 outs, and is possibly ahead, and has ample fold equity when behind? That's really weak.

Checking is the wrong play in this situation, no matter how you slice it.

Also, his stack size is irrelevant if it covers ours when it's HU. It's not that hard to understand why.

you need to up your reading comp.

I havn't said to do anything "weak".

I don't think you can bet/fold this hand. You either bet with an intention of seeing the river, or you check/fold.

If we both agree on betting, how do see yourself folding with over half your stack in there?

And I still can't believe you guys dont think that the villians stack size matters. People play differently based on how much they are up, or how much they are stuck, or how much they will have to "call off profits" with and the such.

The only fold equity we have here are over medium pairs that somehow called on the flop. If the villian made a weird call on the flop with a weak draw obviously a big bet will push him off, but I don't have any read on this guy, so I can't really judge that.

You can't just saying "checking" is weak, betting is strong... Checking isn't weak @ all times. Sometimes it is, sometimes it isn't. But if you are advocation checking to a guy on a paired board, who called a HUGE raise on the flop, as weak...why? can't give up a lead? Our draw has gotten worse. Our hand may have a maximum of now 8 outs since the board paired..unless he has a boat and are now drawing dead.

Basically, we have a 16 - 28% chance of making the best hand by the river. And I think it is a lot closer to the former.

This is a pretty big read based hand now on the turn. I don't think you can just say, "checking" is weak, yet betting is strong.

To that I could just say, "betting the turn cause you don't want to appear as a weak player is being stubborn."

A lot now is read play...what kinda hand does he 'just' call with on the flop...how has he played other hands..

not simply, checking is weak...soo...lets bet!

- Jordan

Please re-read my second post. There was a misunderstanding, and I said it makes it closer.

If we check, the villain, who is a good player, would bet here. We have to assume that. He could bet with complete air, he could bet with a hand we have odds against, he could bet a hand that we are drawing dead against, etc. Regardless of what he bets, we will probably have to fold. In this situaiton, IMO, we check/fold a winner or a very live draw a lot of times.

On the contrary, if we bet first, we maintain the lead in the hand and don't allow the villain to outplay us, which I would assume he is very capable of doing. We also have fold equity against mid-pairs as well as a variety of other hands. The only hands that he would raise in this instance are hands that we are drawing slim against. In other words, we invest a large bet, but we are only getting raised by a much smaller portion of villain's hand range.

Think about it from the villain's perspective. Do you see how hard it is for us to handle a bet with our holding? Imagine that perception for the villain, who is facing an opponent (us) who has shown strength at every interval of the hand thus far. That jack can be just as much a crippler for him as it is to us.

I am not necessarily recommending a bet/fold, but I am recommending a bet.

If you are going to check, you might as well open farrel.

If this guy calls 12x raises of lead bets on flops JUST to try to outplay us postflop, then we will bust him later.

Point is, this comes down to a read. How the OP knows the villian.

I understand the perception from both sides. I've played a ton of NL hands to see this kinda stuff and unless this guy has a "read" on us, he isn't calling this huge flop raise with hands like AJ, KJ, QJ, or air. If he did call 'us' on this flop with nada, he probably does have a read on the OP and is willing to gamble and put a bluff in on the turn.

The OP isn't me. This was a live game and he may or may not give off tells while playing.

Point is...checking, betting isn't clear here. I don't think I could bet here without committing myself to see it to the river.

The only option I see, besides check/folding, or betting large, is betting weak and trying to buy the draw and hope not to get raised. Now even saying that I don't know if I like it...cuz I can't think of the last time I've done that. And I'm normally a player who leads for pot sized bets regardless of what I have, so to a good opponent who knows my style, he'd pick up on that and raise me.

I'm recommending a bet in the sense that the OP isn't folding to a raise, so take the chance that villian does have a weak hand and bet out strong..

If he is thinking at the time of the hand, "I should fold" then he should check/fold and move on. And hopefully, if that thought is his gut, and he trusts his gut and his read, and acts on it.

- Jordan

You can either push now! or if you check he's bluff u if he has nothing and you'll be forced to call which will be most of your chips so I would push here..