180 man SNG
20 left
18 make the money.
PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t800 (6 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx
BB (t5130)
UTG (t15740)
Hero (t8275)
CO (t16129)
Button (t7735)
SB (t23692)
Preflop: Hero is MP with A:club:, K:spade:.
1 fold.
Flop: (t3050) 2:spade:, 5:spade:, 3:diamond: (2 players)
SB bets t2400, SB calls t4225.
Turn: (t16300) 2:heart: (2 players)
River: (t16300) 3:heart: (2 players)
Final Pot: t16300
I'm out in 20th. 2 from the money. Happened all night like this.
Full Version: did i play this hand ok ?
Im guessing he had a pocket pair?
At this stage of the tourney Im not going to push all in with nothing (AK high and gutshot) when I have a decent Stack:blinds ratio. While I dont think it's completely terrible, he called a raise before the flop and then bet into you. While it couldve been a continuation bet I just dont like this because it's how I used to play it and it only got me into trouble. at the end of the day AK isnt a made hand.
At this stage of the tourney Im not going to push all in with nothing (AK high and gutshot) when I have a decent Stack:blinds ratio. While I dont think it's completely terrible, he called a raise before the flop and then bet into you. While it couldve been a continuation bet I just dont like this because it's how I used to play it and it only got me into trouble. at the end of the day AK isnt a made hand.
I'd have 8 x the blind if I folded here. I didn't consider that in good standing. stack/blind ratio. He smooth called preflop with 66 and lead out like that. How he knew I didn't have KK,AA is beyond me. I figured I had 10 outs but shit myself when I saw him flip over 66 . I'd be either all-in or folding preflop with 66. I really didn't think he hit the flop so I moved all-in.
Your mistake there is that you think that everyone believes that a preflop raise and a continuation bet/raise on the flop means that you have AA or KK. Lots of people do that online with nothing, and this guy had an overpair to the board (albeit a small pair, but an overpair nonetheless).
Plus, that doubling the big blind raise was HORRIBLE. You NEVER raise that little in tournament play. You are inviting hands to join you, like the small and big blind who get in at a discount anyways. It's the same reason you never limp with aces, because your just inviting people to crack them so you can throw yourself a pity party about "how aces never hold up". In this case, he called you on the flop for CHEAP with 66, bet out when he realized he had an overpair, knew you were full of shit and rightly put you on two overcards. He had plenty of chips, he decided to gamble a little, he won. Simple.
I've been reading a lot of your posts and a lot of your threads, and seriously, you need to stop thinking that everything is going to be handed to you on a silver platter. For whatever reason (maybe you won a decent sized tourney or something) you think you are better than you really are. Seriously, go grab HOH 1 and 2, sit down and read that puppy 5 times. Then, practice. I think you have the desire to get better, so take the steps to do so. And stop worrying about everyone elses play, just worry about yours.
I hope you don't take this too harshly, but sometimes, you have to say things this way in hopes that the other might listen.
-Shawn K
Plus, that doubling the big blind raise was HORRIBLE. You NEVER raise that little in tournament play. You are inviting hands to join you, like the small and big blind who get in at a discount anyways. It's the same reason you never limp with aces, because your just inviting people to crack them so you can throw yourself a pity party about "how aces never hold up". In this case, he called you on the flop for CHEAP with 66, bet out when he realized he had an overpair, knew you were full of shit and rightly put you on two overcards. He had plenty of chips, he decided to gamble a little, he won. Simple.
I've been reading a lot of your posts and a lot of your threads, and seriously, you need to stop thinking that everything is going to be handed to you on a silver platter. For whatever reason (maybe you won a decent sized tourney or something) you think you are better than you really are. Seriously, go grab HOH 1 and 2, sit down and read that puppy 5 times. Then, practice. I think you have the desire to get better, so take the steps to do so. And stop worrying about everyone elses play, just worry about yours.
I hope you don't take this too harshly, but sometimes, you have to say things this way in hopes that the other might listen.
-Shawn K
he was obviously waiting to see the flop before deciding what to do with those sixes. when he hit his dream flop (overpair with a gutshot), what else was he gonna do but push? people don't put people on higher pocket pairs than them at lower levels, they just push and find out afterwards.
with that said, i think you played ak terribly here. never before has the concept of overplaying ak held truer. to recap:
blinds 400/800, 6 handed
180 entrants, 20 left, 18 finish in money
your stack: 8275
your m: 6.75 or so
you're 1 from cutoff, with 4 to act behind you
you minraise (first mistake), get a cold caller in the small blind, and see a flop of 2 5 3. then the small blind bets 2400 into a 4000 pot, and you reraise all in with your gutshot and two overs (knowingly putting your money in with what is almost certainly the worst hand, you're 38% to win if he has 7s instead of 6s and you have those 10 outs).
as hard as it is to believe the small blind ever has anything, what do you think he has when he smooth calls your min raise and bets into you on that flop of all unders? he has to respect your min raise and assume you have SOMETHING and also be prepared for the fact that you'll come over the top, yet he STILL bet into you. your ak beats absolutely nothing here (a-q? x-4? gimme a break).
if you're not ready to put your time and work (160 players worth) into a crapshoot in which you have the worst of it, why are you making this play? the only way you're going to win this hand is if you hit, and odds are that you aren't going to hit. why would you come to the forum and whine about it afterwards?
i've seen you react poorly to negative posts before. please don't take this post as a flame or insult; instead, analyze it and think about it and take something from it that will improve you as a player. good luck.
with that said, i think you played ak terribly here. never before has the concept of overplaying ak held truer. to recap:
blinds 400/800, 6 handed
180 entrants, 20 left, 18 finish in money
your stack: 8275
your m: 6.75 or so
you're 1 from cutoff, with 4 to act behind you
you minraise (first mistake), get a cold caller in the small blind, and see a flop of 2 5 3. then the small blind bets 2400 into a 4000 pot, and you reraise all in with your gutshot and two overs (knowingly putting your money in with what is almost certainly the worst hand, you're 38% to win if he has 7s instead of 6s and you have those 10 outs).
as hard as it is to believe the small blind ever has anything, what do you think he has when he smooth calls your min raise and bets into you on that flop of all unders? he has to respect your min raise and assume you have SOMETHING and also be prepared for the fact that you'll come over the top, yet he STILL bet into you. your ak beats absolutely nothing here (a-q? x-4? gimme a break).
if you're not ready to put your time and work (160 players worth) into a crapshoot in which you have the worst of it, why are you making this play? the only way you're going to win this hand is if you hit, and odds are that you aren't going to hit. why would you come to the forum and whine about it afterwards?
i've seen you react poorly to negative posts before. please don't take this post as a flame or insult; instead, analyze it and think about it and take something from it that will improve you as a player. good luck.
QUOTE (theredpill99)
I'd have 8 x the blind if I folded here. I didn't consider that in good standing. stack/blind ratio. He smooth called preflop with 66 and lead out like that. How he knew I didn't have KK,AA is beyond me. I figured I had 10 outs but censored myself when I saw him flip over 66 . I'd be either all-in or folding preflop with 66. I really didn't think he hit the flop so I moved all-in.
having 8xblind in my opinion still gives you a chance to find a better spot than this. As I said AK is a drawing hand and you got married to it after you missed and were attacked. Even if you have ten outs you're sitll a dog to win the pot from there.
you got your money in as dog again and lost, makes sense. I could go on but the previous poster summed it up beautifully.
I also agree, grab HOH 1+2 theyre great I just ordered them and theyre just full of such good stuff your game wont have any choice but to improve. sit down take notes, read read read. There's so much to learn out there for example i was reading the other day zee justin opens all the tables and watches people on their way to the final table 30 minutes to an hour before he gets there to get a feel for people. What was your feel for the SB here?
Min raise in early position with AK is not a move I would suggest.
Push preflop.
QUOTE (theredpill99)
180 man SNG
20 left
18 make the money.
PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t800 (6 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx
BB (t5130)
UTG (t15740)
Hero (t8275)
CO (t16129)
Button (t7735)
SB (t23692)
Preflop: Hero is MP with A:club:, K:spade:.
1 fold.
Flop: (t3050) 2:spade:, 5:spade:, 3:diamond: (2 players)
SB bets t2400, SB calls t4225.
Turn: (t16300) 2:heart: (2 players)
River: (t16300) 3:heart: (2 players)
Final Pot: t16300
I'm out in 20th. 2 from the money. Happened all night like this.
20 left
18 make the money.
PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t800 (6 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx
BB (t5130)
UTG (t15740)
Hero (t8275)
CO (t16129)
Button (t7735)
SB (t23692)
Preflop: Hero is MP with A:club:, K:spade:.
1 fold.
Flop: (t3050) 2:spade:, 5:spade:, 3:diamond: (2 players)
SB bets t2400, SB calls t4225.
Turn: (t16300) 2:heart: (2 players)
River: (t16300) 3:heart: (2 players)
Final Pot: t16300
I'm out in 20th. 2 from the money. Happened all night like this.
Fold the flop, you aren't favourite if you get all in on the flop so why bother. As for this leaving you with only 8X the blind its better than zero.
This is an automatic push preflop. A minraise is absolutely the last thing you want to do. Heck, I'd rather you have limped than minraised.
As always, I agree with copernicus.
Push pre-flop if you're going to play.
You're M is actually just above 4.
8275/1200*.6(6 Handed table).
So you're in a position of push or fold in my opinion.
If you felt 2 guys could drop out real quick then folding would be a better idea to ensure a cash position as AK not a made hand. I know some will say always go for first but if the smarter play is to let someone else bust, I say go for it.
Pushing may have put you in the same position as you had anyway since it was a large stack that was in big blind. Calling a min raise was a lot easier than calling a third of his stack in any case.
Finally, SB bet into you after flop. I consider his bet means that he has a hand unless you have solid info he is a BSer.
You go all-in to make him believe that you have a high pocket pair.
SB probably thinks it is more likely that you have a draw than a pair and the money is right for him to call.
He needs to call 4225 to make 13025. He has to call unless he truly believes that you have a pair.
Not an uncommon error that you made.
And this is internet play. Never assume you're bets will be respected no matter how you've been playing this tourney. Majority of people play with just their own cards and many will call you're all-in on an overpair no matter what the scenario.
2 cents.
Push pre-flop if you're going to play.
You're M is actually just above 4.
8275/1200*.6(6 Handed table).
So you're in a position of push or fold in my opinion.
If you felt 2 guys could drop out real quick then folding would be a better idea to ensure a cash position as AK not a made hand. I know some will say always go for first but if the smarter play is to let someone else bust, I say go for it.
Pushing may have put you in the same position as you had anyway since it was a large stack that was in big blind. Calling a min raise was a lot easier than calling a third of his stack in any case.
Finally, SB bet into you after flop. I consider his bet means that he has a hand unless you have solid info he is a BSer.
You go all-in to make him believe that you have a high pocket pair.
SB probably thinks it is more likely that you have a draw than a pair and the money is right for him to call.
He needs to call 4225 to make 13025. He has to call unless he truly believes that you have a pair.
Not an uncommon error that you made.
And this is internet play. Never assume you're bets will be respected no matter how you've been playing this tourney. Majority of people play with just their own cards and many will call you're all-in on an overpair no matter what the scenario.
2 cents.
QUOTE (TheSkearnel)
You NEVER raise that little in tournament play. You are inviting hands to join you, like the small and big blind who get in at a discount anyways. It's the same reason you never limp with aces, because your just inviting people to crack them so you can throw yourself a pity party about "how aces never hold up".
I have to disagree with all of this. I DO agree that it was a bad raise in this situation, but to say you should never min-raise preflop is not true. It is a great play with AA and KK, as it will often induce a re-raise.
Also, "you never limp with aces" is a pretty wild assertion. I LOVE to limp with aces in early position or heads up, as it's a great way to get value. What you are looking for is any kind of raise, and you re-raise huge. If you get 6 limpers at a full table, be willing to fold your aces. To me that is a fair payoff, considering that a 3x raise will often just take the blinds.
QUOTE (copernicus)
Push preflop.
Definitely agree. You have a fairly low stack, but not the lowest, and are trying to survive past 2 more players. If you decide that you want to play a hand and are first to act, just move all your chips in. If somebody calls your AK it is probably a coinflip.
QUOTE (cubbybri)
Push pre-flop if you're going to play.
You're M is actually just above 4.
8275/1200*.6(6 Handed table).
So you're in a position of push or fold in my opinion.
You're M is actually just above 4.
8275/1200*.6(6 Handed table).
So you're in a position of push or fold in my opinion.
His EFFECTIVE M is just above 4. His real M is still over 6 (not sure exactly, depending on antes). But I agree that it's push/fold. And there's no reason to fold AK.
I have stopped the thinking that minimum raising is good once in awhile, it generally never is. Especially with a strong drawing hand. ESPECIALLY with a strong drawing hand. What I have found in tournament play is that no matter how strongly I raise, if people want action they will come and get it. There is a psychology behind this that is interesting- I am generally a chip leader at my table, in the top three- people with pairs like to push against big stack raises ALOT, and I can only think it's because at some point they just figure you are bluffing, and you don't have cards.
I guess my point is stop mimum raising. It only leads to trouble.
I guess my point is stop mimum raising. It only leads to trouble.
QUOTE (Loismustdie)
I have stopped the thinking that minimum raising is good once in awhile, it generally never is. Especially with a strong drawing hand. ESPECIALLY with a strong drawing hand. What I have found in tournament play is that no matter how strongly I raise, if people want action they will come and get it. There is a psychology behind this that is interesting- I am generally a chip leader at my table, in the top three- people with pairs like to push against big stack raises ALOT, and I can only think it's because at some point they just figure you are bluffing, and you don't have cards.
I guess my point is stop mimum raising. It only leads to trouble.
I guess my point is stop mimum raising. It only leads to trouble.
I like a minraise to steal the button.
eg. you're in MP with 46s, a hand you will play for cheap from the button...a couple limpers in front of you...I find that a min-raise is usually enough to get the people behind you to fold, and sometimes even the blind(s), whereas if you limped, you may get a limper or two behind you.
You now have position on 2-4 other players, you've got to see the flop for relatively cheap, you have a bit of preflop agression in your favour, and you may have puzzled your opponents.
The minraise is a valid tool - it may not be used as much as other plays, but don't ignore it.
Use it to show strength to players who see a minraise as a trap...use it to show weakness to players who see it as weak.
QUOTE (copernicus)
Push preflop.
QUOTE (shpaget)
QUOTE (Loismustdie)
I have stopped the thinking that minimum raising is good once in awhile, it generally never is. Especially with a strong drawing hand. ESPECIALLY with a strong drawing hand. What I have found in tournament play is that no matter how strongly I raise, if people want action they will come and get it. There is a psychology behind this that is interesting- I am generally a chip leader at my table, in the top three- people with pairs like to push against big stack raises ALOT, and I can only think it's because at some point they just figure you are bluffing, and you don't have cards.
I guess my point is stop mimum raising. It only leads to trouble.
I guess my point is stop mimum raising. It only leads to trouble.
I like a minraise to steal the button.
eg. you're in MP with 46s, a hand you will play for cheap from the button...a couple limpers in front of you...I find that a min-raise is usually enough to get the people behind you to fold, and sometimes even the blind(s), whereas if you limped, you may get a limper or two behind you.
You now have position on 2-4 other players, you've got to see the flop for relatively cheap, you have a bit of preflop agression in your favour, and you may have puzzled your opponents.
The minraise is a valid tool - it may not be used as much as other plays, but don't ignore it.
Use it to show strength to players who see a minraise as a trap...use it to show weakness to players who see it as weak.
Or I would just fold the 4-6 suited from MP, and not even deal with all that mess.
You win tournaments by playing strong hands, not trying to get cute and outplay opponents with B.S., most of them arent smart enough to fold to your raise on the flop of K-6-J, and will probably push all in with 8s or better. Just raise hard preflop, or don't raise at all. It's that simple.
QUOTE (shpaget)
I like a minraise to steal the button.
eg. you're in MP with 46s, a hand you will play for cheap from the button...a couple limpers in front of you...I find that a min-raise is usually enough to get the people behind you to fold, and sometimes even the blind(s), whereas if you limped, you may get a limper or two behind you.
You now have position on 2-4 other players, you've got to see the flop for relatively cheap, you have a bit of preflop agression in your favour, and you may have puzzled your opponents.
eg. you're in MP with 46s, a hand you will play for cheap from the button...a couple limpers in front of you...I find that a min-raise is usually enough to get the people behind you to fold, and sometimes even the blind(s), whereas if you limped, you may get a limper or two behind you.
You now have position on 2-4 other players, you've got to see the flop for relatively cheap, you have a bit of preflop agression in your favour, and you may have puzzled your opponents.
If youre going to face 2-4 players in position with 64s, do you really care whether you have the button or not? I would rather have as many players in as possible to improve my implied odds. With the relatively few flops I can play at all I dont think position means much, in fact middle position may be better than last position because you may have the chance to make a defensive bet when its checked to you.
Also, with a couple of callers in front of you a min-raise isnt going to buy the button from very many hands, the odds are too good.
I do like the confusion value of a min-raise. Just read posts here and the differing interpretations of what a min-raise means from different positions. Also when the blinds are big relative to stacks a min-raise has as much FE as a standard raise with a bigger stack/blind ratio, but doesnt pot commit you.
QUOTE (Loismustdie)
I have stopped the thinking that minimum raising is good once in awhile, it generally never is. Especially with a strong drawing hand. ESPECIALLY with a strong drawing hand. What I have found in tournament play is that no matter how strongly I raise, if people want action they will come and get it. There is a psychology behind this that is interesting- I am generally a chip leader at my table, in the top three- people with pairs like to push against big stack raises ALOT, and I can only think it's because at some point they just figure you are bluffing, and you don't have cards.
I guess my point is stop mimum raising. It only leads to trouble.
I guess my point is stop mimum raising. It only leads to trouble.
I agree with the others that a min-raise is not bad. But not with a hand like 64 suited with limpers in front of you. Min-raise is a good play with AA or KK, as you will often get somebody to play back at you. A lot of players interpret a min-raise as a dumb rookie move, so they try to steal from you with a reasonable hand.
QUOTE (timwakefield)
QUOTE (TheSkearnel)
You NEVER raise that little in tournament play. You are inviting hands to join you, like the small and big blind who get in at a discount anyways. It's the same reason you never limp with aces, because your just inviting people to crack them so you can throw yourself a pity party about "how aces never hold up".
I have to disagree with all of this. I DO agree that it was a bad raise in this situation, but to say you should never min-raise preflop is not true. It is a great play with AA and KK, as it will often induce a re-raise.
Also, "you never limp with aces" is a pretty wild assertion. I LOVE to limp with aces in early position or heads up, as it's a great way to get value. What you are looking for is any kind of raise, and you re-raise huge. If you get 6 limpers at a full table, be willing to fold your aces. To me that is a fair payoff, considering that a 3x raise will often just take the blinds.
Ok, you min-raise with AA, someone re-raises you, and then you do what? Come over the top? Yeah, that's not gonna raise any red flags, is it? Even the dumbest of players is gonna get an idea that MAYBE you have AA. A widely used idea is to NEVER alter your raises. Make em 3x (or 4 or 5x, your choice) the big blind, and stick with it. Then they'll NEVER know if you have AA or 72 offsuit. You are just giving away your hand with that strategy.
You LOVE to limp with Aces, eh? Well then, you must also love telling bad beat stories, because that's a hell of a way to get them cracked. I could probably head over to the Bad Beat section and see 4 or 5 posts by you, and how you got your aces cracked by such and such a hand. You DON'T limp with Aces. It's not smart. Plus, your strategy is exactly the same as min-raising. You think people aren't going to figure out that you have a BIG hand. They are going to fold there 99 or AQ to you ALL THE TIME, because it's OBVIOUS you have them beat.
Now, say you raise your normal 3x the BB, and you get called by the AQ. Flop is Q52. Bet your glad you didn't do that stupid stuff preflop and end up losing out on a LOT of money.
I'm glad you agreed with the bad play with AK, but seriously, you need to work on your strategy, because so far as I can tell people should be able to read you like a book.
-Shawn K.
QUOTE (TheSkearnel)
A widely used idea is to NEVER alter your raises. Make em 3x (or 4 or 5x, your choice) the big blind, and stick with it. Then they'll NEVER know if you have AA or 72 offsuit. You are just giving away your hand with that strategy.
Does this mean you never limp with any hand? Raise or fold always? There are times when you want to see a cheap flop, but if you only do that with suited connectors and small/medium pairs then your opponent will pick up on that. It can't be right to always raise, so limping with a big hand on occasion is necessary. I do believe that most of the time you need to be raising, but I don't think you can just say always raise X.
QUOTE (Hobbes)
QUOTE (TheSkearnel)
A widely used idea is to NEVER alter your raises. Make em 3x (or 4 or 5x, your choice) the big blind, and stick with it. Then they'll NEVER know if you have AA or 72 offsuit. You are just giving away your hand with that strategy.
Does this mean you never limp with any hand? Raise or fold always? There are times when you want to see a cheap flop, but if you only do that with suited connectors and small/medium pairs then your opponent will pick up on that. It can't be right to always raise, so limping with a big hand on occasion is necessary. I do believe that most of the time you need to be raising, but I don't think you can just say always raise X.
Actually, the philosophy of raise or fold, never ever limp, is a very common strategy, and is promoted by many pros, including Howard Lederer. I don't take such an extreme view, because I sometimes like to limp with a suited connector if there are multiple limps, but that really is the only time you should limp, outside of blind play.
The reasoning behind the raise or fold strategy is that if you have the better hand, you want to get as much money in the pot as possible, if you don't have the best hand you don't want to put any money in the pot. The other benefit of raising is that it allows for much greater definiition of people's hands. Like I said, I'm not a complete "raise or fold" type, partly because I don't think its optimal given the extremely poor level of postflop play at the buyins that I play at, but I definitely understand the merit of such a strategy, and if I were to ever play a big buyin tournament against high quality opposition that would definitely be the strategy that I used.
QUOTE (TheSkearnel)
You DON'T limp with Aces. It's not smart. Plus, your strategy is exactly the same as min-raising. You think people aren't going to figure out that you have a BIG hand. They are going to fold there 99 or AQ to you ALL THE TIME, because it's OBVIOUS you have them beat.
It depends on how much they typically raise. If they raise and still have a decent amount of chips left and you reraise with limped aces then they should figure out what you have and play accordingly.
This isn't always the case though. If you're sitting a little to the left of one or more players who like to move all in from late position (with their all in being a serious over raise of the pot) when there's several preflop limpers, then limping from early position with aces can be a nice trap. Sure, when you call their all in they'll probably realise what they're up against, but it's too late as they've already committed all their chips.
QUOTE (therrinn)
QUOTE (Hobbes)
QUOTE (TheSkearnel)
A widely used idea is to NEVER alter your raises. Make em 3x (or 4 or 5x, your choice) the big blind, and stick with it. Then they'll NEVER know if you have AA or 72 offsuit. You are just giving away your hand with that strategy.
Does this mean you never limp with any hand? Raise or fold always? There are times when you want to see a cheap flop, but if you only do that with suited connectors and small/medium pairs then your opponent will pick up on that. It can't be right to always raise, so limping with a big hand on occasion is necessary. I do believe that most of the time you need to be raising, but I don't think you can just say always raise X.
Actually, the philosophy of raise or fold, never ever limp, is a very common strategy, and is promoted by many pros, including Howard Lederer. I don't take such an extreme view, because I sometimes like to limp with a suited connector if there are multiple limps, but that really is the only time you should limp, outside of blind play.
The reasoning behind the raise or fold strategy is that if you have the better hand, you want to get as much money in the pot as possible, if you don't have the best hand you don't want to put any money in the pot. The other benefit of raising is that it allows for much greater definiition of people's hands. Like I said, I'm not a complete "raise or fold" type, partly because I don't think its optimal given the extremely poor level of postflop play at the buyins that I play at, but I definitely understand the merit of such a strategy, and if I were to ever play a big buyin tournament against high quality opposition that would definitely be the strategy that I used.
I should read more Lederer. I agree that most of the time you should be raising, but I just don't like strategies that dictate such rigid guidelines. I actually experimented some with the always raise X strategy for a while and I felt like I was getting played back at a lot more and I was left holding hands that didn't really like getting re-raised pre-flop. Also, it seemed like I had less control of the post-flop action because my raises weren't respected as much. It could be that I was playing too loose for that kind of strategy, I don't know. Like I said, I'll have to read more Lederer...
QUOTE (therrinn)
Actually, the philosophy of raise or fold, never ever limp, is a very common strategy, and is promoted by many pros, including Howard Lederer. .
This is only his (and most pros) beginners philosophy. Even DN, in his video, advises that at the beginner and intermediate levels you should raise 5x because you dont want to play post-flop without a hand that you are that confident in.
QUOTE (Hobbes)
QUOTE (TheSkearnel)
A widely used idea is to NEVER alter your raises. Make em 3x (or 4 or 5x, your choice) the big blind, and stick with it. Then they'll NEVER know if you have AA or 72 offsuit. You are just giving away your hand with that strategy.
Does this mean you never limp with any hand? Raise or fold always? There are times when you want to see a cheap flop, but if you only do that with suited connectors and small/medium pairs then your opponent will pick up on that. It can't be right to always raise, so limping with a big hand on occasion is necessary. I do believe that most of the time you need to be raising, but I don't think you can just say always raise X.
Slight misunderstanding, I meant, if you are GOING to raise, don't alter the amount of your raises. There are still hands you should limp with and try to see a flop, but hands that you are GOING to raise with should have the same amount to the raise.
-Shawn K
QUOTE (TheSkearnel)
QUOTE (timwakefield)
QUOTE (TheSkearnel)
You NEVER raise that little in tournament play. You are inviting hands to join you, like the small and big blind who get in at a discount anyways. It's the same reason you never limp with aces, because your just inviting people to crack them so you can throw yourself a pity party about "how aces never hold up".
I have to disagree with all of this. I DO agree that it was a bad raise in this situation, but to say you should never min-raise preflop is not true. It is a great play with AA and KK, as it will often induce a re-raise.
Also, "you never limp with aces" is a pretty wild assertion. I LOVE to limp with aces in early position or heads up, as it's a great way to get value. What you are looking for is any kind of raise, and you re-raise huge. If you get 6 limpers at a full table, be willing to fold your aces. To me that is a fair payoff, considering that a 3x raise will often just take the blinds.
Ok, you min-raise with AA, someone re-raises you, and then you do what?
Come over the top? Yeah, that's not gonna raise any red flags, is it? Even the dumbest of players is gonna get an idea that MAYBE you have AA.
I re-raise. Sometimes flat call. So what if it raises red flags, you are now playing for at least a fair-sized pot.
A widely used idea is to NEVER alter your raises. Make em 3x (or 4 or 5x, your choice) the big blind, and stick with it. Then they'll NEVER know if you have AA or 72 offsuit. You are just giving away your hand with that strategy.
You LOVE to limp with Aces, eh? Well then, you must also love telling bad beat stories, because that's a hell of a way to get them cracked. I could probably head over to the Bad Beat section and see 4 or 5 posts by you, and how you got your aces cracked by such and such a hand.
BLOW ME. Maybe you should try knowing what you're talking about first. I do very well in tournaments. I said I love to limp with aces. That means I love the play...it doesn't mean I do it all the time. But if you are at an aggressive table and everybody has shrinking Ms and there are a few short stacks around, I love the play.
You DON'T limp with Aces.
You've got it backwards. I DO limp with Aces. YOU don't.
It's not smart.
Yeah Doyle Brunson had no idea what he was talking about when he wrote Supersystem.....................
Plus, your strategy is exactly the same as min-raising. You think people aren't going to figure out that you have a BIG hand. They are going to fold there 99 or AQ to you ALL THE TIME, because it's OBVIOUS you have them beat.
NOOOOOOOOO they are going to try to steal the pot with AQ or 99 because they perceive weakness as weakness.
Now, say you raise your normal 3x the BB, and you get called by the AQ. Flop is Q52. Bet your glad you didn't do that stupid stuff preflop and end up losing out on a LOT of money.
You raise 3x. Everybody folds. Limping is a calculated GAMBLE that you will get raised and can build a pot. I can make scenarios up too: You limp, AQ raises 3x, you raise 3x, AQ calls. Flop comes Q52.
People will almost always call a small re-raise because of the enormous pot odds....and if you want you can also just push in, and take down the pot as-is.
I'm glad you agreed with the bad play with AK, but seriously, you need to work on your strategy, because so far as I can tell people should be able to read you like a book.
I MADE 2 FINAL TABLES IN 900+ PERSON TOURNEYS YESTERDAY.
QUOTE (TheSkearnel)
Slight misunderstanding, I meant, if you are GOING to raise, don't alter the amount of your raises. There are still hands you should limp with and try to see a flop, but hands that you are GOING to raise with should have the same amount to the raise.
-Shawn K
-Shawn K
I disagree. There are times when you want to raise more (eg to isolate), and there are times you want to raise less (eg with a monster). Since you cant strictly follow a stragegy where the size of your raise telegraphs your hands, you need to vary the size of your raises in general, with a significant tilt toward the kinds of raises youd really like to make based on your hand/position/stacks. There arent enough hands that will go to showdown in front of the same players for them to pick up any solid read based on bet size as long as you include some variation all of the time.
QUOTE (timwakefield)
QUOTE (TheSkearnel)
QUOTE (timwakefield)
QUOTE (TheSkearnel)
You NEVER raise that little in tournament play. You are inviting hands to join you, like the small and big blind who get in at a discount anyways. It's the same reason you never limp with aces, because your just inviting people to crack them so you can throw yourself a pity party about "how aces never hold up".
I have to disagree with all of this. I DO agree that it was a bad raise in this situation, but to say you should never min-raise preflop is not true. It is a great play with AA and KK, as it will often induce a re-raise.
Also, "you never limp with aces" is a pretty wild assertion. I LOVE to limp with aces in early position or heads up, as it's a great way to get value. What you are looking for is any kind of raise, and you re-raise huge. If you get 6 limpers at a full table, be willing to fold your aces. To me that is a fair payoff, considering that a 3x raise will often just take the blinds.
Ok, you min-raise with AA, someone re-raises you, and then you do what?
Come over the top? Yeah, that's not gonna raise any red flags, is it? Even the dumbest of players is gonna get an idea that MAYBE you have AA.
I re-raise. Sometimes flat call. So what if it raises red flags, you are now playing for at least a fair-sized pot.
Well, flat calling would be just as horrible as your limp was. You are BEGGING to get your aces cracked.
A widely used idea is to NEVER alter your raises. Make em 3x (or 4 or 5x, your choice) the big blind, and stick with it. Then they'll NEVER know if you have AA or 72 offsuit. You are just giving away your hand with that strategy.
You LOVE to limp with Aces, eh? Well then, you must also love telling bad beat stories, because that's a hell of a way to get them cracked. I could probably head over to the Bad Beat section and see 4 or 5 posts by you, and how you got your aces cracked by such and such a hand.
BLOW ME. Maybe you should try knowing what you're talking about first. I do very well in tournaments. I said I love to limp with aces. That means I love the play...it doesn't mean I do it all the time. But if you are at an aggressive table and everybody has shrinking Ms and there are a few short stacks around, I love the play. [/b]
Nice mature response with the "blow me". This response was probably fueled by the fact that I was right, and you do indeed have aces cracked a lot. I didn't say you did it all the time, but you are already doing it more than you should (where should = never).
You DON'T limp with Aces.
You've got it backwards. I DO limp with Aces. YOU don't.
Don't get smart with me. This WAS a discussion, until you went all 12 year old on everyone in the last two comments.
It's not smart.
Yeah Doyle Brunson had no idea what he was talking about when he wrote Supersystem.....................
Yeah, problem here is YOU are NO Doyle Brunson. He can probably get away from Aces, where as I assume you can't. (read comment above about you getting aces cracked a lot)
Plus, your strategy is exactly the same as min-raising. You think people aren't going to figure out that you have a BIG hand. They are going to fold there 99 or AQ to you ALL THE TIME, because it's OBVIOUS you have them beat.
NOOOOOOOOO they are going to try to steal the pot with AQ or 99 because they perceive weakness as weakness
Are you dense? You limp (or min-raise, your choice) with pocket Aces, and AQ or 99 reraises you. Now, YOU reraise or move in over the top. They are NOT going to try to steal the pot from you because they KNOW you are strong. They don't have to sense anything, you're spelling it out for them.
Now, say you raise your normal 3x the BB, and you get called by the AQ. Flop is Q52. Bet your glad you didn't do that stupid stuff preflop and end up losing out on a LOT of money.
You raise 3x. Everybody folds. Limping is a calculated GAMBLE that you will get raised and can build a pot. I can make scenarios up too: You limp, AQ raises 3x, you raise 3x, AQ calls. Flop comes Q52.
People will almost always call a small re-raise because of the enormous pot odds....and if you want you can also just push in, and take down the pot as-is
What world do you play in where people fold AQ or 99 to 3x BB raise? I mean, that's one TIGHT ass table.
I'm glad you agreed with the bad play with AK, but seriously, you need to work on your strategy, because so far as I can tell people should be able to read you like a book.
I MADE 2 FINAL TABLES IN 900+ PERSON TOURNEYS YESTERDAY.
Great, congratulations even. This doesn't make your opinions more vaild. If Daniel Negreanu, who has won a couple WSOP bracelets, and some WPT events, told me to limp with Pocket Aces, I wouldn't do it, because IT DOESN'T MATTER! It's a rediculous idea, and a -EV one overall.
Please don't degrade a conversation about tournament strategy into a juvenile dick measuring contest. Just try to make your point.
Maybe Tim W overreacted a bit with his response, but you invited it with your attitude, especially in your first response. The tone on this board is generally one of mutual support and analysis, not the crap that often passes for discussion on 2+2. Whe you come on with a post like this expect an answer in kind:
"I've been reading a lot of your posts and a lot of your threads, and seriously, you need to stop thinking that everything is going to be handed to you on a silver platter. For whatever reason (maybe you won a decent sized tourney or something) you think you are better than you really are. Seriously, go grab HOH 1 and 2, sit down and read that puppy 5 times. Then, practice. I think you have the desire to get better, so take the steps to do so. And stop worrying about everyone elses play, just worry about yours. "
Since you opened the door to criticism of players and not plays, I will add mine: you need to learn that there are no absolutes in poker strategy. There is a time and a place for everything, including limping with AA and min-raising. And to quote a recent poster, there is a good chance that you think you are better than you really are.
"I've been reading a lot of your posts and a lot of your threads, and seriously, you need to stop thinking that everything is going to be handed to you on a silver platter. For whatever reason (maybe you won a decent sized tourney or something) you think you are better than you really are. Seriously, go grab HOH 1 and 2, sit down and read that puppy 5 times. Then, practice. I think you have the desire to get better, so take the steps to do so. And stop worrying about everyone elses play, just worry about yours. "
Since you opened the door to criticism of players and not plays, I will add mine: you need to learn that there are no absolutes in poker strategy. There is a time and a place for everything, including limping with AA and min-raising. And to quote a recent poster, there is a good chance that you think you are better than you really are.
QUOTE (TheSkearnel)
Well, flat calling would be just as horrible as your limp was. You are BEGGING to get your aces cracked.
I am also begging to get maximum value from them. It is a calculated decision to let your opponent try to improve...but not improve to better than you. It's not like I made this up, it is a widely used play.
QUOTE
Nice mature response with the "blow me". This response was probably fueled by the fact that I was right, and you do indeed have aces cracked a lot. I didn't say you did it all the time, but you are already doing it more than you should (where should = never).
The BLOW ME was in response to your assertion that I "love telling bad beat stories," which is just a useless thing to say. Untrue as well.
As far as "should = never" yeah right. AA loses 1 in 5 or 1 in 6 vs most hands.
Also, I don't get aces cracked particularly often. The situation isn't very frequent where I like to limp (UTG or UTG+1, lots of middle Ms, a few short stacks, very aggressive table). In other words, in a situation where you look to be raised. Then you re-raise and often get somebody to put their stack all in. Every once in awhile everybody limps...and then you still have the best hand going to the flop...and should be open to folding a scary flop.
THERE, THAT IS THE PLAY. CRITICIZE IT.
QUOTE
Yeah, problem here is YOU are NO Doyle Brunson. He can probably get away from Aces, where as I assume you can't. (read comment above about you getting aces cracked a lot)
The point is to pick a situation where you are likely to get raised. If you pick your situation well, then the small chance that nobody raises you is acceptable because of the chance that your 3X raise just takes the blinds.
QUOTE
Are you dense? You limp (or min-raise, your choice) with pocket Aces, and AQ or 99 reraises you. Now, YOU reraise or move in over the top. They are NOT going to try to steal the pot from you because they KNOW you are strong. They don't have to sense anything, you're spelling it out for them.
You have misunderstood me. I meant that if you limp or min-raise, you are inviting anybody and especially small stacks to try to steal the blinds plus one...
QUOTE
What world do you play in where people fold AQ or 99 to 3x BB raise? I mean, that's one TIGHT ass table.
Well if somebody has a hand they like, then you are probably getting their money either way. But you are trying to convince somebody to overplay their hand.
QUOTE
Great, congratulations even. This doesn't make your opinions more vaild. If Daniel Negreanu, who has won a couple WSOP bracelets, and some WPT events, told me to limp with Pocket Aces, I wouldn't do it, because IT DOESN'T MATTER! It's a rediculous idea, and a -EV one overall.
Please don't degrade a conversation about tournament strategy into a juvenile dick measuring contest. Just try to make your point.
Please don't degrade a conversation about tournament strategy into a juvenile dick measuring contest. Just try to make your point.
How did I degrade this conversation? Your first accused me of being a whiny baby about always losing with AA when I limp, which was completely made up. So I told you to blow me.
I mentioned about my tourney victories because you seemed to think I had no idea what I was talking about. My response: "Yo, look at this $$ I won playing poker, maybe I have some idea what I'm talking about."
I mean this is classic stuff...
ahhh redpill
ahhh redpill
Man I got really mad.
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