Ultimate Bet 2/4 Hold'em (6 handed, 6 max) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Preflop: Hero is MP with 8:spade:, A:spade:.
UTG calls, Hero calls, CO calls, Button calls, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: (6 SB) 8:club:, 4:club:, T:spade: (6 players)
SB checks, BB checks, UTG bets, Button calls, SB calls, BB calls, UTG calls, Hero calls.

Turn: (9 BB) K:diamond: (6 players)
SB checks, BB checks, UTG checks, Hero checks, CO bets, Button calls, SB folds, BB calls, UTG calls, Hero folds.

I was oh so lost on every street. UTG was tight passive preflop, and alright postflop. His bet out on the flop in a family pot usually means he's got at least top pair. I felt like I should have raised somewhere, but I really don't know where. I folded the turn despite getting the odds I needed closing the action because I felt hitting an ace or an 8 may not win me the pot anymore. Was that retarded? Help on all streets appreciated, no reads on anyone else really.

If your read is that UTG has you beat just fold the flop, with so many players in the pot you could end up paying a lot to see the turn.

I have around 6.5ish outs on the flop after he bets, even if my read is that he had a better hand. 3 aces, 2 8s, 1.5 for BD flush draw. I also felt there was a chance, albeit not better than 30% I had the best hand, which is why I made the initial call. After the raise behind me on the flop and everyone calling, and me closing the action, the 2nd call is very easy. I never thought of folding anywhere in the hand, anyone else agree with folding to the initial bet on the flop?

Yeah, with that many people in the flop, I think it's ok, to see the turn with an overcard, and backdoor flush.

I think you played it well. Although I might have just checked the flop, considering it was a family pot and your position.

With a small pot, I would fold on the flop to the re raise...

Your outs aren't all clean, I'd give you 5.5 outs which means you're not getting the right odds. If you're closing the action with other players in a call is fine, but you still have 4 players behind you left to act.

I just don't see why you'd want to be in this pot.

Off topic, but I also don't understand why people factor in implied odds for hitting a backdoor draw but not for their other outs, seems like you end up with a number that makes no sense. Any help?

I would fold on the flop after the CO raised.

I doubt you have the outs that you think you had. With that many guys in the pot, I assume that you are dealing with at least one flush draw to the clubs. If they are drawing to anything but the nuts, the ace of clubs is not a clean out.

Even the other two aces are not necessarily clean, since you could easily be up against AT or a set. The odds of 44 limping are very high. I would argue that you have between 4.5-5.0 outs, so I would have folded to the raise.

my take:

Raise preflop

I take a look at the river.

*** read repleis ****

who the hell folds closing the action getting 17:1 with "about 4-5 outs" ??

I figured 4 outs, and I still wouldn't fold.

and yeah, 44 would limp, but the so what. There may be a set out. Only one aggressor so far, pretty early to worry about M.U.T.B.

Poppin,
the implied odds are considered more-so for big draws, like nut flushes, beause we know we will raise these. Trip 8's are less likely the winnig hand (although, pretty strong)

You can't check if it's bet to you.



We'd be getting about 17:1 to call the re-raise. Even if we were drawing to just 3-4 outs it's an automatic call.

I'm wondering if raising the flop might be ok. By doing that we might be able to gain position for the rest of the hand and clean up our Ace outs.

DING DING DING DING DING !!!!

WE HAVE A WINNER

I totally missed that.
I was more focused on the preflop limp and OP's question on the turn.


but wait: aren't you afraid of a set ???? :roll:

I like raising and folding better than calling.

u like folding better than calling?
sure, it could get crazy behind us, but we have plnety of outs to call here.
It's jsut that raising is so much better here

but why do you prefer folding over calling?

I sometimes type without thinking. I wanted to stress the bolded point.

what about a raise preflop- if your hand is half decent this can never be toobad a play shorthanded- it may also knock the rest of the field out, and eve if the blinds call you have postion and control of the hand. It would certianly make this hand easier to play.

A7s is about the borderline for me to raise in this spot. Isolating weak limpers is +EV.

With smaller aces I just limp and see if I can flop the nut flush draw in a multi-way pot.

Against most limpers I'm raising here, but the bubba described UTG as tight passive. How tight only he knows.

If he feels A8s isn't good against his range then limping is better.

if he is really tight raise anyway- all it means is you get him out of the pot if he misses on the flop regardless of what you have once you make your continuation bet.

He was really tight, I'd raise someone if I thought I either had the best hand or they played weakly post flop. However, this guy was passive preflop but not so passive postflop. Still, a good case can be made for raising preflop. This is the 2nd hand in the last few days I've posted here and gotten incredibly mixed responses. Is this the norm now? Did everyone used to just agree with Screech? Where is Screech anyhow? Why can't anyone agree! Maybe I'm just posting situations that are too damn close to call.

limping in shorthanded games is generally to be avoided, especially in early position.

I'm no good at poker, a big part of the reason that I respond to these posts is to improve my own game.

The large majority of the players who post here aren't good enough to consistently know the right play, if they did they'd be beating the highest limits. But, at the very least when you post a hand you get some different perspectives and get to think about the hand more yourself.

I still think I'm right though

you said you wouldnt raise because our opponent is tight passive. Now this is how you improve your poker. You know that tight passive is not that way to play, especially shorthanded. It is probably the worst way to play shorthanded.

So now that you know your opponent doesnt play well, think how do i take advantage of my opponents poor play. here, his play is poor because he is weak how do you capitalize- raise. He now has to hit his hand to call you, which means you dont have to hit. all of a sudden the odds are in your favour.

Disagree, the vast majority of passive players I play against will call down hoping that their hand is best, while more aggressive players know when to fold. I'm 10x more likely to make a play against a good TAG then a tight passive player because the passive players just don't fold.

If we're behind his range, then raising is spewing.

Just because you limp once in a while doesn't make you tight/passive.

I didnt say it would make yu tight passive.

However, the layer you are describing here who doesnt fold is a loose/passive player. There is a huge difference with a tight/passive player. I cant even mention the two in the same sentence.

Tight and loose have only to do with pre-flop hand selection.

Postflop there is no distinction between the two. Unless I have the definition wrong? I have been very confused by the way people have been using these terms.

you do.

if we are talking of postflop play passive would mean call instead of raise asa general rule. tight means more likely to fold, loose means less likely to call. therefore a tight passive player is more likley to fold than a loose passive player, and when he does call it is indeed more likely to be a call than a raise than an aggressive player.

Are you sure? Then what would we call a player who was tight pre-flop and loose postflop? When you hear of players classified you'll hear something like LAP(loose aggressive/passive), but I've never heard of classifications like LTAP or LLAP.

then they have two different classification, i.e. tight postflop and loose postflop. simple as that. you cant be loose aggressive passive. Its like calling some a violent pacifist.

LAP means loose, aggressive pre-flop, passive postflop. I'm almost positive tight and loose have only to do with pre-flop hand selection.

Can someone else settle this?

Argh, I don't mind a long drawn out conversation between you two, but stop using [/quote] if you're the very next quote, we know what you're responding to so it really just wastes blankspace! Anyway, as I said before, I thought he was good post-flop, and that his range to limp UTG was better than A 8 suited. I think it's probably close between limping and raising in this situation against this type of player.

J-j-jeetorious is correct in the way we/pokertraker categorizes players

ABC where...

A: preflop VPIP
B: Aggression, prflop raising
C: Post FLop Aggression and to an extent looseness, Betting/Rasing/Folding vs Callnig, checking is nuetral.

A player that PT calls TAA, might actually fold a lot post flop when he misses, or Raise all the time, either one will give him a higher Post Flop aggression value.

Someone who calls a lot will have a lower Post Flop Aggression factor..and that person is both loose and passive..so its makes good sense.