2/5 NL $500 buy in at the Mirage. 9 handed.

EP raises to $30. Good player who doesn't need a giant hand to raise here.
MP calls. Good player who would reraise with a big hand.
Button calls. Poor player, but not a calling station. (meaning, he will play bad cards, and take them to the river, but has shown the ability to lay down top pair to a huge bet)

I'm in sb. I have a very tight image at the table. Haven't shown down a bluff or bad cards ever. I decide to make a play here. (I have J9 but in my mind my cards are meaningless.) I raise to $100, needing only the ep raiser to not have a huge hand.

EP raiser folds, mp folds, button calls. Not ideal, but not horrible.

Flop KQr. I bet about 1/3 the pot, he calls. I am fairly sure he has a weak king. Possibly a Q.

Turn J. Currently I have a pair and a gutshot. (So I feel any J, T, or 9 gives me the winning hand) I bet $100. He looks pained about it, but finally calls. I feel that he indeed has a weak K but calls because the bet is semi small in proportion to the pot.

River Q. I move in for another $200 or so. He thinks forever, has his cards ready to fold, but finally calls. He tells me that he called because the Q came, giving him KKQQJ, and making his kicker 'meaningless' in his mind.

I'm not looking for 'you shouldn't have played that hand pf' kinds of answers. Mostly want to know what everyone thinks about the turn. Should I push all in there? Should I give up? I feel a push is in order and my weakish bet was just horrible, but some people I've asked felt I should give it up there.

BTW, he showed me the Krabler (suited) to win the pot

Mark

Since you don't want the advice to not re raise preflop, OOP, in a raised pot, that has been called already by two players....

Bet the flop more if you're going to try to represent something. Bet the turn more. You value betted him to high hell here.

Lastly, I think you may have misread this player.

not sure.
u basically need to push him out either on the turn or river right? so betting $100 and then $200 wouldn't make sense to me as the pot is compensating so much (no matteer what the card are)

I dont like the fact that its already a large pot so any K would be struggling to lay down here unless he really believed the Qt.

i know u didnt want an answer about pf play, and i dont mind u trying to make a play here, but I would have thought $200 preflop would have been better if this is what u wanted to do, as it reps AA/KK like u want to shut out the 44-99 hands that are looking to hit a set with odds. Then when u move in on the flop all he can beat is JJ??
Personally if i was dying to make this play, i would have waited one hand and make it on the button as sb is obviously gonna be a lot more guesswork.

RE: pf - I understand aspects of this pot you described. I believed there was some money out there to be had. I know many people here won't like the play and thats ok. But thats why I mentioned I wasn't interested in pf advice here. Just was a spot I chose to pick.

RE: flop and turn bets - I agree, horrible. Flop I dunno, I am just trying to continuation bet and pick up the pot, assuming there are overs to whatever hand button called with. Turn is my question. So in your opinion, you push here, not give up the pot?

RE: reading the player - Why do you think I misread him? I feel that my read on him was accurate all night long. This hand was a good example I think.

Mark

Well, my pf raise was consistant with how I personally would play AA or KK. I do not vary the size of my bets based on my cards. I raised slightly more than 3X the current bet. Going to $200 is something I would never do regardless of my cards.

Anyone calling with a lower pair hoping to hit a set is not getting good odds. Our stacks are only $500 deep, not $1000 or so which I would think would be the MINIMUM you'd want to call this bet with trying to hit a set.

If I would have waited one more round, there would not have been a play to make. I wasn't trying to steal the blinds, I was trying to steal $100 worth of what I considered weak money out there.

Thanks for the replies so far. Keep em coming!
Mark

I think some players may interpret the flop bet as JJ here. I think if I was him and I was determined to call down here I would have raised you on the flop.

Regarding the read on the player. IMO, when you don't misread hand strength, put the player on the actual hand he has, and cannot get him off of that hand contrary to what your read tells you, then you have misread your opponent or misinterpretted his read upon you.

if i was bluffing this i'm not betting 1/3 the pot. commit to your bluff and bet 3/4 the pot.

Maybe this just works for me cause I almost always bet 3/4 the pot so people get lost in hands with me..but I do it some it's hard for them to pick up a betting tell. They have to decide whether I have it or not, and can't judge it based on how much im betting with good cards or bad cards.

another problem is you may just not be able to bluff this player, although you said he's folded to pressure..you didn't apply enough.

Your turn bet is too weak. If he was a good enough player to pick up on your betting habits I think he'd A raise here, or fold. He's obviously bad as he just calls, so I'd quit on the river as this hand was to butchered on the flop/turn to make a succesful bluff on the river.

I really think him calling the turn shows he probably isn't going anywhere. You needed to bet the flop harder..

I like the idea..but I really only value bet like this if I'm playing a donk who I know will call down weak bets, but not strong ones. You said he'd fold to strong bets, but called down weak...well...that does'nt follow what your read was I guess and how you played the hand.

good post though, i like it..better luck next time.

- Jordan

*nod* My interpretation of all of that is not that I misread the player, but that I played the hand poorly. I never put him to a decision where he was comfortable folding. We're probably saying the same thing, but to me, I 'read' him correctly, I just didn't make the correct play to utilize that information.



Mark

I just reread this and got what you meant. If that's your read, then you definately need to apply more pressure. For me Especially on the turn.

I know. I just very consistantly keep to my betting habits. I think you bring up a good point though. Against a player who would understand this, that is reasonable. I bet more than I normally would, he smells something is up. But this guy was not that sophisticated, so I could have bet enough to put real pressure on him to fold, without him thinking it suspicious.

Really though in my mind, I was just hoping he didn't hit anything and would fold, without me risking a ton more on a bluff that I was hoping wouldn't have seen a flop as it was, so that kept my bet small.

Poorly played all around post flop it seems

Mark

Agreed. If I do it all over again, I push on the turn.

Anyone advocate giving up at this point? (on the turn) Thats really what I'm wondering. Was I just throwing money away to a bluff that went awry?

Mark

Some will say yes, but I think being aggressive is the best thing in NL. it keeps my win rate up at the games I'm playing now.

Against this guy, if he is afraid of calling a big bet, make it. it's situational. no one can just tell you "don't bluff". ppl that don't know how to bluff may say that..but if you can do it, have the bankroll to do it, and sense weakness..then you should. no doubt about it.

what u shouldn't do is bet weak when u have no hand against a guy who isn't folding, but would fold to a big bet..

i know u know...just reinforcing

Besides your re-raise pre-flop all of your bets seem weak. Typically if you've got a hand you increase your bet amount as the hand progresses, but it seems like you bet $100 (or close to it) on every street. That screams to me "my hand's not that good, I'm hoping you don't have a good enough hand to call with."

On the flop there's approx. $325 in the pot, bet b/t $175 and $225 and he lays his hand down. On the turn bet $300 or maybe even move-in, and he folds. As you played it, you just made weak bets on every street.

Look at it this way. You bet $100 or so on the flop and another $100 on the turn, if you bet $200 on the flop you win a nice pot.

I don't disagree with your assessment. It was meekly played, for sure on the turn.

On the flop, there was $260ish in there. $100 from both of us, and $30 from the two others who folded. We both have $400 or so left in front of us at this point.

I think I get called on the flop though no matter what my bet, unless I move in I guess. But I suspect this guy would have called a pot sized bet there with top pair. He would fold on the turn with top pair weak kicker to another big bet though.

Mark

raise PF to 150 and maybe you take it down. 100 isn't enough with a raise and 2 callsb ehind you.

bet out 2/3 pot on the flop, and push the turn if you feel he's weak.

but this could have all probably been avoided by betting 150 instead of 100 pf