Is there anyone here who plays a LAG style? 9-10 players that I play with claim to be TAG, most are weak/passive, but thats another story.

For a few days I have been reading every single post made by Gigabet over at 2+2. He has a style that seems so LAG, and it intrests me.

Here is a scenario that has brought on some discussion at 2+2 (its old though, some of you may have already read this)

First here is the hand in question



This hand was played in step 5 of party step tourney (2table). Blinds going up to 50/100 next hand. Villain is gigabet. Table is 6 handed, about 11-12 left in tourney. From my read, Gig is a very aggressive player who would make this raise with a wide range of hands. I thought that he'd fold a lot of the hands that would be close to a coinflip considering he was only getting 1.4:1 and because I had played very tightly, but I guess this last part of my read was wrong seeing that he called with JK. Was my push a good play?

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t50 (6 handed) converter

Hero (t820)
UTG (t1065)
MP (t1255)
CO (t2200)
Button (t2500)
SB (t475)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 9, A.
UTG folds, MP folds, CO folds, Button raises to t125, SB folds, Hero raises to t820 (All-In), Button calls t695.

Flop: (t1665) 8, T, J (2 players, 1 all-in)

Turn: (t1665) 4 (2 players, 1 all-in)

River: (t1665) K (2 players, 1 all-in)



Ok Gigabet calls with KJ here, a play I wouldn't have made in a million years. But I am not Gigabet.

Here is Gigabets response

This is a call that wins tournaments, i win the hand, hopefully a coin flip situation, then i have 33 bb in the next level, in a short handed field, i can run over the table for a short period of time. If I lose I am not much different from where I was before, still can steal, but have to wait for position and good hand selection. I wasn't too worried about you doubling in that situation, because you are a tight player who is rarely playing back with out the best of it. I knew I was getting the worst of it when I called, but the freeroll was too much to pass up.
I know all the numbers, and with your hand I had positive value for the call(not much), but you had a lot of negative value in your push, your fold equity is nonexistent there, a stop and go, i think should have been your only real option in the situation. Sorry about the result, but i believe I ended up winning that tourney, and I think I can thank that call for the win.


If this intrigues you as much as it does me, then you can read the entire thread

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat...=0&fpart=1&vc=1

This isnt LAG play per se, its stack strategy, which in gigabets line of thought is akin to utility theory. If you read his incomprehensible post on "blocks" this is a very similar play.

While he is taking somewhat the worst of it in odds, the extra 695 chips have lower "utility" then the chips he can pick up ( ignoring the "additional chips lose value" theory).

Dropping down to 1700 only significantly changes his chip position against one player, and it still gives him plenty of room to play poker. Moving up to 3300 gives him a nice surplus "block" of chips which he can freeroll with and control the table.

While he posts that he knows he is taking the worst of it, I dont believe he is in terms of $EV, especially if you dont apply strict ICM, but take into account the utility of his now surplus chips to pressure small stacks.

His block theory is what convinced me that a good computer tournament model needs to be devised to formalize stack/utility considerations that the savants find second nature.

BTW, be careful reading his posts. I am convinced that some are strictly for building table image.

As Copernicus pointed out, this isn't really an example of LAG play. While I'm not sure that I would have made his call with KJ, in hindsight I definitely think its the right play. Then again, this is why I'm very careful raising hands on the button and in the blinds...I might raise with a decent hand, get reraised, and think that I have to call because it could quite likely be a bluff.

But anyways, as to whether or not I play a LAG style, it is something I experimented with for a couple of weeks, to see whether I could play it successfully. In the end, I don't think I was horrible at it, but nor did am I a Phil Ivey. I now have recently reverted to a generally tight strategy, but still try to play LAG between the first and second/third breaks of MTTs.

Sounds like you and I are on the same path to enlightenment

What Ive found in experimenting with LAG play is it requires much more focus and concentrated hand reading than TAG play. That was a little bit contrary to the image of "play loose, hit flop, take down big pot" I had before trying it (even after reading Edogs book).

Because of the variance and the frequent bluffing opportunities I think it plays a bit better at higher buy ins than it does in the $20s.

Sounds like you and I are on the same path to enlightenment

What Ive found in experimenting with LAG play is it requires much more focus and concentrated hand reading than TAG play. That was a little bit contrary to the image of "play loose, hit flop, take down big pot" I had before trying it (even after reading Edogs book).

Because of the variance and the frequent bluffing opportunities I think it plays a bit better at higher buy ins than it does in the $20s.

Yeah, I'd like to experiment with it a bit more in some higher buy-in tourneys, as well as in some deep stack tourneys, as I think it would be a much more effective style with a considerably higher M. What did you think of Edog's book? Worth a purchase?

Youve already learned the most important thing in the book which he mentions so quietly you can miss it....deep stacks. It should be fairly obvious that you need some long implied odds to play a enough lag hands to make them pay.

Other than that its mostly the same stuff..position, selective aggression etc. If you just enjoy reading poker books its a nice addition to a library. If youre looking to learn what he and DN know..they aint telling. (If you saw my review of the DN DVD, its even less helpful than Edogs book.

His style is very much lag, but I agree that his comments are about stack manipulation not being a LAG player.

I'm not familiar with this gigabyte feller, but it doesn't look LAG to me, it looks like someone who wants to win the tournament. 8)

To learn more about Gigabet, read the current Cardplayer article regarding the five diamond tourney at the Bellagio. He came in 5th after going to the final table in second.

As said above, this isnt a LAG example, but he is definitely a LAG player. 2+2 is full of posts about hands played by him that clearly show him thinking at a different level than us mere mortals ("meta thinking" in 2+2 terms).

Unfortunately, it is very hard to distinguish between brilliance and insanity, for us and I think for him sometimes. (eg a huge, failed bluff at the FT in 5 diamonds that appears to be a total donk, but he spends considerable time justifying. I can hear the WPT commentators now "Wow, what could he be thinking here. What a bold play! This is no ordinary internet player".)

He has a huge fan club that hunts him down at Stars to drool all over him, and anything he posts automatically gets a "post of the year" nomination from one of them.

There's a "post of the year" award? I nominate Akishore (limit holdem), Jackkingoffsuit (Omaha), Smasharoo (bad ass), Wintermute (Omaha), Copernicus (tournament play), and JFarrell20 (donk). 8)

Unoffical POTY award at 2+2. Since Fossilman doesnt post much if at all anymore, gigabet would get all of the final nominations im sure.

I think the forum mods here should go through each forum folder for all 2005 posts, and lets make it official on FCP!

Oh, I forgot to add one nomination - anything by Rocketwadster (Stud 8). 8)

Anything by rockwadster except that awful Tunica post.

ha ha ha...touche 8)

I don't think there was enough info provided to give a better response than what I gave, which was to push or fold. 8)

I might agree if there are imminent bust outs and the payout is already getting steep. Since OP never said either I assume they dont apply. Even then my guess is that a push is right. You push out too many hands that youre only a small favorite over.

omfg omfg omfg

so I just wrote the lonngest fucking post, because I found this whole LAG/deepstack and high buy in tourney talk very interesting. as I click submit something happens and it all goes to shit. feels like I got runner runnered, but now I have to go to sleep because its 6 am.

i like the A9 push especially on an aggressive player. i like the KJ call given the stack sizes. KJ is in decent shape against a ton of hands and not that bad against a naked ace which is basically what you have.

The 125 raise would confuse the hell out of me though...is it a steal ...or is it a hand...tricky. I might just call and see what flops. I still would have gone broke on this hand when the open ender flopped.

i don't see why this post went over 20 pages on 2+2 lol.

I think the over/under on a gigabet post is 18 pages

He did prove to be subject to getting cards like the rest of us in a Stars $150 the other day. He tried to make a few moves that made no sense to me...reputation raises imo, didnt get lucky and bye bye early.

He seems to categorize his opponents very well, however playing with someone for an hour may not be enough information. He thinks that players don't really change for the most part, "a slowplayer will always slowplay." I don't agree with this line of thinking. Another thing, I think some of the plays he talks about would work with WCP's but not just your average online tournament player.