Anyone else who watched last night think Harman grossly overplayed her set of 7's against Sammy.


Knowing that he is an aggresive player, wouldn't you smooth call the flop bet and let him lead it on the turn again?


Why push all in on the flop, where you are almost sure he can't call you.

Could you please describe the hand for those of us who missed it?

Sure thing. I kind of walked in on the middle of it since i had class last night.

But


Sammy had AK and Harman had 77


I missed the preflop action.


Flop came down 7 4 K rainbow flop.


Sammy bet out a pretty nice bet.

harman sat on it for a few...then comes over the top All in...which was a huge overbet, and basically priced sammy out of the hand. he mulled it over..but im sure he knew he was beat, just saving face...and he folded.


I think if Harman smooth calls there...and then possibly even smooth call the turn..either way if she pushes the turn or river she has all his chips for sure. Rather than letting him out cheap.

Yes. She got excited, I think.

Possibly, but both of these pro's are thinking about what the other might be doing.

If Jen thinks sammy has a king, she can get all his money in on the flop. That board is very harmless, if Jen smooth calls two streets, Sammy probably knows whats up. Jen put Sammy on a big hand and thought it would be best to get him now. From an outsider's point, it could easily look like Jen was trying to steal the pot back (from an aggressive opponent). Apparently, Farha saw through it and let it go.

i agree with you how she played that hand would of got alot more out of sammy.

Wasn't Eli Elezra in the hand to? I was half paying attention.

I think the betting went. Harman checks, Elezra checks, Sammy bets, Harman goes all-in, fold, fold.

Three in preflop.

Jen, Eli Elezra, Sammy.

Sammy had AK, Eli had TT, Jen had 77

Flop came; K7x

Jen checked, Eli bet, Sammy raised, Jen Pushed, Eli folded, Sammy folds.

Things you're not taking into account;

--Pot Size; I believe with the preflop action, Eli's bet and Sammy's raise the pot was upwards of 25k.

--Sammy Steaming; Sammy had gotten broken off and out played a couple times in the hands previous, he got caught bluffing a couple times, and he was needled repeatedly by Sheikhan and was getting a bit annoyed. He could very well have called with AK there thinking they were trying to push him around again--though it would've been a suspect call.

--Flush draw on board; I believe, though I might be wrong, that there was two clubs or two spades on the board. She wanted to price out any draw and her stack size in relation to pot size meant a 'normal' raise wouldn't leave her with much behind for a turn bet.

If the three flush does pop up on the turn she loses action from Sammy(unless he has the naked Ax, where x equals the two flush on the board) and she has a hard time betting out at any point.

--Eli was still to act behind her after Sammy's raise. If she cold calls, Eli has odds to call with a draw--though we know he had TT and wasn't likely calling the raise, and then if either Sammy or Eli has the draw she's effectively priced them in and put herself in a bad way for any three flush that shows up on the turn.

I don't exactly remember the betting amounts. But the action went something like this:

Jennifer was holding a piece of paper...casually reading it...and raised preflop with 77. Eli acting behind her raises it up with 10 10. Sammy held big slick...and flat called, as did Jennifer.

The flop comes K74 (I think rainbow). Jennifer casually checks still looking at that paper. Eli bets out...Sammy raises a bit. Jennifer moves all in. It appeared as she was nervous...as she had trouble moving her stack in...tipping it over and such. Eli and Sammy both took their time to fold. This other guy on the table kept talking even when he wasn't in the table to just p/o Sammy.

In any case everyone had her on 77 after the hand...and was correct.

The funniest hand was when DN called Sammys hand 92. I'm almost certain Sammy would have played the hand if DN hadn't said anything...haha. The flop came 972. Gave DN a pair of 7's....and he ended up taking the pot. Sammy didn't seem to happy...haha.

Oh, and, it's a set of 7's.

Not trip 7's.

The only thing I can think of is trying to appear that you're buying it by overbetting on that flop. A smooth call looks even more suspicious on that board IMO.

I don't exactly remember the betting amounts. But the action went something like this:

Jennifer was holding a piece of paper...casually reading it...and raised preflop with 77. Eli acting behind her raises it up with 10 10. Sammy held big slick...and flat called, as did Jennifer.

The flop comes K74 (I think rainbow). Jennifer casually checks still looking at that paper. Eli bets out...Sammy raises a bit. Jennifer moves all in. It appeared as she was nervous...as she had trouble moving her stack in...tipping it over and such. Eli and Sammy both took their time to fold. This other guy on the table kept talking even when he wasn't in the table to just p/o Sammy.

In any case everyone had her on 77 after the hand...and was correct.

The funniest hand was when DN called Sammys hand 92. I'm almost certain Sammy would have played the hand if DN hadn't said anything...haha. The flop came 972. Gave DN a pair of 7's....and he ended up taking the pot. Sammy didn't seem to happy...haha.

and if the ten falls after smooth calling letting Eli in on the cheap, half the people here call her a donkey for not pushing. (not that she gives a crap what people think, JS)

I don't exactly remember the betting amounts. But the action went something like this:

Jennifer was holding a piece of paper...casually reading it...and raised preflop with 77. Eli acting behind her raises it up with 10 10. Sammy held big slick...and flat called, as did Jennifer.

The flop comes K74 (I think rainbow). Jennifer casually checks still looking at that paper. Eli bets out...Sammy raises a bit. Jennifer moves all in. It appeared as she was nervous...as she had trouble moving her stack in...tipping it over and such. Eli and Sammy both took their time to fold. This other guy on the table kept talking even when he wasn't in the table to just p/o Sammy.

In any case everyone had her on 77 after the hand...and was correct.

The funniest hand was when DN called Sammys hand 92. I'm almost certain Sammy would have played the hand if DN hadn't said anything...haha. The flop came 972. Gave DN a pair of 7's....and he ended up taking the pot. Sammy didn't seem to happy...haha.

Flop went check, bet, raise, and it was back to Harman. There was no real draw that Harman could have, IMO a smooth call screams 'I have a set!' as much as moving in.

What else could she possibly call with there?

I agree, smooth calling would have alerted sammy, however, it was better than just shoving it all in

smooth calling 2 bets is a suspect move and sammy might have seen right through it. I agree with the all in move on flop for it may look like shes just pushing him around

I disagree. A smooth call isn't always a set. Coulda been a K with a weak kicker. Coulda been an under pair. Something tricky, but there was lots of calling going on in that game. One there wouldn't have defined a set.

Armchair quarterbacks.

edit: how would you play it if you saw everyones cards. Smooth call and see the turn? Or push in and get everyone out? (I just started TOP)

So a smooth call would've been correct right?

I'm asking

Anyone else want to post how the action went on the flop?

I might be the only one who reads through a thread before responding, I think.

You guys kill me.



And no, smooth calling is not better than shoving. You're wrong.

the way the bet it, and the fact that they didnt really show her playing too many other hands, and everyones reaction to her bet, i think she may have overplayed that, maybe if she raises to 50k or something like that, it may have confused them even more and maybe get sammy to reraise all in, there was no flush or straight possibilities really on that board.

I think she made a mistake. If she smooth called, Eli might have called (doubtful) but Sammy might have made another move at her. She basically decided that the 25K in the pot was enough, and by reraising all in Sammy really had to lay it down. I think that was really what she wanted to happen.

The smooth call probably also tells Sammy he is beat, so she may have figured that whatever she did she wasn't going to get any more chips. And there always the possibility that someone could draw out on you. It seemed very defensive.

I like calling for the chance that Eli might call, and Sammy might be induced to put chips in after the turn. Either way She probably isn't getting anymore chips, given what the villians were holding. But if an Ace or King falls, she may get all of Sammy's chips.

I think she overplayed it but who am I to question one of the best players in the world.

Anyway, I would have smooth called it. Even if by doing this it gives signs of having a set, Sammy would have definitely bet the turn, if anything, to get more information. Then she has some options, like smooth calling again, a min raise, or big raise. At the least she would have gotten his extra bet.

Anyway, Jen says that No Limit really isn't one of her strong games. Limit Holdem has always been her specialty(which in my opinion, she is the best in the world).

Isn't betting out on the flop a better move at this level? The check call or check raise line screams strength. If she had bet first, wouldn't She get more chips? Eli probably would flat call, and Sammy would have either called or maybe raised. These guys were plaing super aggressive, I think if she bets here she gets raised enough to make more money.

More fun would be to see her bet, Eli call, Sammy raise and the she flat calls. That does not scream set as much as her line did.
Thoughts?

"I disagree. A smooth call isn't always a set. Coulda been a K with a weak kicker. Coulda been an under pair. Something tricky, but there was lots of calling going on in that game. One there wouldn't have defined a set.

Armchair quarterbacks."


On a K7X rainbow board, a smooth call def means better than a pair. Especially since the action went check/bet/raise. You can't call with a draw since it is possible that Eli would come over the top of Sammy. The All-in may not be the "best" play on that board all of the time, but with the fact that Sam was being having a rough session, it may have been the most profitable. A player on tilt (even pros are subject to tilt) may call an all in there.
A smooth call would have set off an alarm, and the only thing that may have gotten her more would have been a miracle turn (A OR K) where he may believe he caught back up.

Harmarn was the first to come into the pot by limping in the pot. Eli then made a raise to somewhere near 3k-4k. Sammy then called with AK off and Harman also called.

Flop came 7 K 4 , i believe rainbow

Harman checked, Eli made a near pot bet and Sammy raised around 20k more, then Harman came over the top around 100k total.

Do you realize how inherently contradictory that is?

"She's making it painfully obvious she has a set, but he's gonna bet top pair anyway."

What?

You don't think facing a bet, and a raise, her cold call just screams big hand?

That and she's out of position.

She checks the turn, Sammy checks behind.

She might value bet the river and he might call--but that's irrelevant.

He might be loose and fast and likes to throw the chips around, but he's not dumb. He didn't get to where he is by overplaying TPTK like a lot of the people who are advocating smooth calling.

The fact is, that pot's big. It's worth stealing. Her bet makes it look like a steal. He's either going to call her all in or put next to no more money in the pot on the turn and the river. [/b]

Yeah people who are saying smooth calling is best are so dumb. You're only saying that becuase Gabe Kapler said it and you see that Farha folded.

If Farha called the all in everyone would be on here saying "what a play by Harman!"

LOL, and you even got the pre-flop action wrong

:wink:

There I can be a douchebag too and make it really small and be a total fag later

oh wait you didn't even make it small. you actually didn't say sw at all. you lose i win

Great point, Sammy is going to know she has a monster with the check anyway. So you figure the overbet might look like a steal and get called? Interesting deception. That is a good point.

I guess the issue is, she checked to get action behind, now how does she maximze it. Sammy is unlikely to go any further with TPTK unless he thinks he is good, and anything she does should convince he isn't. Her overbet might have worked. I like the smooth call, not knowing what Eli has and hope he can continue. And I want Sammy to tr to catch up. But your option could have worked as well.

My mistake for thinking you were as dense as the average General Forum poster. Clearly, I was mistaken.

You know i had just walked in on the tail end of her "tanking" after farha's bet.


I didn't realise she was looking at a bet and raise...i thought it was heads up with her and farha.


Yea i think maybe a min reraise would have been more effective to try and sucker in some more money...but a smooth call was definately not going to work.



good points.

quick question
if you have a pocket pair and you hit one on the flop/turn/river its called a set right? and if you have say AK and the flop is KKx, thats trips?

edit-wooo post #500!

I went to high school with a kid like you.

Is your name Jeff, and do you still wear that helmet and have people help you around all over the place?

Wow you missed that one too huh. Wow i think you are the dense one. I was clearly kidding everytime.... See how dumb your theory is

Jesus you keep missing it!

thats correct

No, I think it's you who's missing it.

Let me help you...

Shut the fuck up.

If you have nothing more to add to the discussion of the hand, then don't post. Your continued attempts at "pwning" or "punking" me are retarded.

You've done nothing but 'cause this thread to devolve into a typical General Forum waste of space.

Now, quit it.

Is that more clear?

If you have anything else to say, PM me--otherwise I'm done with you.

blakheart wrote:




Agreed. I think the checkraise didn't work given what we know about the hands. However, most of the time your opponents are going to miss the flop or only have a little piece of it. Sammy hit the flop and Eli had only the K to worry about given the texture of the flop. The check raise under most circumstances would give Jen the most action. But she could've won more since her opponents were strong had she used the 1/2 pot sized bet - reraise option. Hindsight is 20/20 though, or at least 19/20 .

Maybe she shoulda folded them face up to tighten up her table image,then pounded them all later.



I think something similiar to this was actually suggested a few weeks ago by someone , and without a {sw}

You all get too caught up in terms... kind of makes you sound arrogant...


Three of a kind... is a SET or TRIPS... doesn't matter.. still three cards of the same rank.

yeah, but techincally.

Like when three guys are on top of me, it really isn't a gang bang. It's more of just group sex. Gang bang is 4 or more on 1. Just saying

Does anyone lead out w/ a set here???

I know people love to trap w/ their sets, but is there any merit to leading and trying to induce a raise???

Think about it. Say there's 10K in the pot. She leads for 7 or 8K, Eli folds and Sammy raises to 25K. Now you can either raise him or smooth call. It's trickier to put her on a set this way.

I didn't see the play, so I don't know any of the circumstances, but from my personal experience I make more on sets by leading out b/c nobody puts you on such a strong hand.

So ...... three is trip sex and gang bang is quads???
All in all.... still sex... Just saying....

I'm slightly aroused. It could be Ramocita, but it could be the old lady in front of me that smells of white fish.

you haven't lived until three sets of hands carress your naked, tingling body.

I like leading with a set with 2 people in this pot just because some one is likely to have a strong ace here. I think you get more than C/Ring.

Actually, they're very different.

One is much more powerful, concealed, less likely to get counterfeited and can be the 'nuts.'

One is much less powerful, not concealed in the least, very likely to get counterfeited, can never be the nuts and will cost you a lot of money if you overplay them.

Do you see how these are so very different?

I respect your point though. But, I disagree. It's not arrogance so much as it is keeping the water from getting murky.