Alright, I know I'm gonna probably take some flack for this but whatever...

I've been playing semi-tight, but havn't really shown any cards.

The villian in said hand has loose preflop requirements and is capable of bluffing post flop. I usually just was banking off his prior betting when he had a hand and it didn't match up in this hand...but you'll see.

I raise UTG to 3.5 with KQs I have $100ish

He is two to my left and min raises me to 6, all fold and I call the $2.5 more. I thought about re-raising him here, but decided to try and outplay him post flop.

flop came 875 with two hearts

I checked, he bet 6. I called.

Turn came 9h

I checked, he bet $16, I raised to $48, he took his entire time bank and called.

RIVER 3s - i can't remember exactly but it was a blank. At this point there was over $120 in the pot and I only had $30. I wasn't going to fold to a river all in and really felt lost (because of his turn call) but moved in for my last $30 praying there was some way he'd fold, but expecting a call and just rebuying.

But he folded...and I scooped a rediculous pot...rediculous in the sense that I can't believe we didn't got to ashowdown

I know what he had, at least claimed to, and I'l share later...

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Commence flaming. Since I was going on a read on the turn play, what do you think? I wanted to get him to fold obvioulsy, but also want him to think I wanted a call..so he would just fold...I thought a push might look fishy cause it would be an overbet...but I also thought he was weak and couldn't call really any raise on the turn, unless he maybe had Ace of hearts or QQ KK AA, but I didn't give him credit for any of those hands cause of his betting pattern...nothing matched up.

So, if you are me in this hand, and you are raising the turn, what are you raising to? In my mind I wasn't sure if I had the best hand or not, but I was confident enough to put the raise in thinking I could get him to fold.

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FWIW, I play 10s - QQ the same way (although I'm probably pushing the flop in most cases), just funny I had K high this time and got him to fold on the river for $30.

I've made these kind of plays for a long time and they usually work out well, this was probably one of the closest times I came to really screwing it up...but I thought it could bring up some discussion on turn play/flop play...maybe not. bleh

- Jordan

Personally I don't think that play is too bad, he reraised you preflop so its highly unlikely the board helped him a whole lot. Once the ideal draw hit you raised him pretty vast amount and he just called on the scariest board in the world for an ACTUAL good hand. Just calling on the flop wasn't bad either cause I dislike when people bet like girl scouts against the scariest boards in the world in order to avoid losing money. It's fine if you had the intention of bluffing if board got scary or catching one of ur cards. I don't get these people though because then when the draw hits and they get reraised huge they abandon their first intention completely and call anyway. This wasn't the worst play in the world, nor was it the best. But calling on the flop to try to hit an over isn't the worst, but its also very dangerous. Good thing it worked, cause people make dumb folds all the time. Some guy against me last night bet 45 on the turn and I raised him to 300, and he called. The he folded to 145 on the river.

I think the better play would have been a raise from me to about 18 - 21 on the flop, and if called put in another strong bet on the turn.

Since I did read him as weak even on his flop bet (which was weak) I think I could have ended the hand then and there.

I'll wait for another response before I say more about my thoughts.

- Jordan

I think if you raised 18-21 on the flop and got a call I would strongly lean towards slowing down on the turn. Most people are going to call there, people love to doubt. You already saw that even after he placed a small bet and gave you correct odds to call, he still called a giant raise after the draw hit. Betting 18-21 then firing again would have been even a bolder play against someone like that with very poor judgment. I think that this is a complicated hand. No matter how you play the hand, if you want to win the pot, you are forced to make a giant move. I think the most clearcut move was placing an oversized bet UTG when the flop came. It would have instantly told you where you stand and took the drama out of the situation.

I think if we're just hoping to stab that pot we need to raise the flop more and push the turn.

Pushing that river with 30 bucks into a 120 dollar pot is horrendous. He should really call with just about any pair or even A high.

why would you consider putting in a re-raise preflop? I dont like that play. As for the actual hand, if im calling on the flop because i have a read on my opponent then i'm probably going to go ahead and lead on the turn. By check-raising youre just allowing himself to commit more of his chips to the pot and increase the likelyhood that he ends up calling you down. And he could also very easily check the turn behind you leaving you with nothing but a bluff on the river (if he has a hand like AK/AQ and is dominating you then all you stand do is lose money on the river should you hit top pair).

Considering re-rasing KQ, even if it's suited, is really bad. It is an oft-dominated hand versus a re-raise in the first place. If the raise had been larger you could almost consider folding pre-flop.

As played, you should seriously consider folding the flop. There is virtually no hand that you can beat here, and you have seriously discounted outs if you choose to continue. It would really suck to peel, hit a Q on the turn, and then run into AQ.

If you wanted to make a play at the guy, then leaving yourself with a 1/4 pot "bullet" on the river wasn't the smartest thing to do. If you ran this simulation 1000 times, you'd easily go broke. You are better off just check/pushing the turn. You will be committed anyway and you have more fold equity if you sprinkle in the extra money it takes for him to call.

eh, I think this borders on fancy play syndrome for me. To the idea that the ideal draw card hit... yes, but why in the hell would u have the 6 here considering you raised UTG. In this hand, you are looking to take down some one who has reraised overcards preflop. Something like AK. In that case, you should be trying on the flop and turn IMO before he really commits himself or catches an A or a K. Your line here is to represent a smooth called AA, KK preflop if you are really trying to take him down. Or possibly a set. either way, I don't think you could make me lay an overpair down here often and I don't think I would be calling a flop c/r and turn push with just two overs. (All this being sad, you caught a donk wich can justify the play for some one, but I disagree. Anyone who is willing to fold this river for that price is completely unpredictable and not truly understanding what he's doing. You're basically flipping a coin as to whether or not this player will believe you but still call, believe you and not call.)

call reraise preflop to protect table image...

check fold flop...

next hand

I like this line much better.

Maybe I didn't give sufficient read.

Check/folding the flop against this guy would have been horrible. His bet on the flop screamed weakness. I really should have c/r him there big. Especially given the read I had and have given you guys. I think that was my biggest mistake on the hand.

I also realize how bad my $30 bet was on the river. I messed up there on the turn raise. I was caught up in the moment and didn't even realize if he did call my big raise on the turn that I wouldn't have any more "bluffing" chips to realistically push him off the hand. That was a big blunder by myslef, and let me assure you I know how lucky I was to have him fold the river. I'm not stupid. I understand that.

As for actually betting or checking the river, well personally I wasn't going to be folding for $30 with K high here, so I mine as well be betting it. I know I'm going to be called with a variety of hands, and most of them I'll be losing to the majority of the time...It was a desperation bet at that point, I f'd up on the turn play cause I didn't even take time to think if I was called how screwed I'd be going into the river.

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As I said, I think I should have raised the flop biggish and if called I would have lead the turn and folded if he came over the top. But I really think the right play against this guy would have been a big check raise and then bet the turn.

He had been trying to outplay people postflop himself with horrible hands and I just frankly didn't believe he had a strong hand this hand. I don't just do this kind of stuff "to do it". But I am very aware at the fundamental error at certain points on the hand.

But I think c/f this flop in itself would have been horrible given the situation and said opponent.

- Jordan

I fold KQs to re-raises from good, tag players almost everytime, unless I'm priced in. This guy wasn't TAG and his re-raising standards didn't mean I had to be dominated, and I was priced in obviously to seeing a flop.

I thought re-raising here would have been good because :

A) He would have been aware that I havn't played many hands, and for me to raise UTG, then get min re-raised, and re-raise myself meant I had a big hand. Had I gone with this line and said re-raised to $20 or so, I would have lead with a $35 - $40 bet on that flop and dealt with what he did. But I really think I could have taken more control of the hand against this guy preflop and on the flop, instead of mistepping on my turn raise...and then having to bet $30 into a big pot on the river.

I really didn't believe his min-re-raise at me.

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I hope I'm not coming off as really defending my play. I think it's clear cut I could have made a better play on the flop, and been more aware that my turn raise was only leaving me $30 to play with on the last street in a big pot (if called). But I also really believe it's clear cut that check/folding the flop is bad considering his weak bet and my read... or even re-raising said opponent preflop isn't as bad here as some of you are saying.

thx for thoughts, i've been doing a lot of thinking on this hand myself and how "not" to put myself in this horrid river position...and I really do realize the misteps on this hand...

I'll post what he claimed to have had once this thread starts to die.

- Jordan

So the entire hand is based on the fact that he usually bets more oncontinuation bets on flop if he has a pair? What did he call the turn with then? kq? 33? Really? If he did, then I think you made a very poor decision in trying to bluff this player. I think c/f is much better than trying to take him off this pot if he's that retarded.

Yea.

I try not to bluff unbluffable opponents obviously.

But is it a bluff if we are betting the best hand? LOL.

I still am against c/f the flop to a $6 bet. Yes I should have raised him there, no doubt in my mind. I think putting a "delay bluff" on this player, isn't the best way to go for mentions reasoned earlier...he's put more money in on the turn, and will still have a harder time folding, or if he has picked up a draw he may not be going away and them I have a weird $30 bet on the river...

As for how much he bet on the flop, he bet less than the re-raise PF. That told me a lot about his hand, and I can't really explain much more than the turn bet didn't seem right in past hands he'd played. His $16 wasn't a protective bet, like he was protecting a big hand, to me it felt like he just wanted me to go away with a price he was willing to pay, thats why I didnt' think he could call any raise...so when he did it really threw me off and basically made me make a desperation "bet" or "bluff" on the river.

- Jordan

Even better, KQ suited is marginal holdings against a top ten hand. An UTG raise? If you've promoted a "semi-tight" image (whatever that means) then better to bluff out UTG with something like 7-5 suited (my favorite hand) so you can bust someone who, if they take you for what you believe you have been portraying, will call you with only pocket pairs or big faces.

KQs is really more akin in to 67s than it is to AKo at a full table. That is, it's a suited connector and it doesn't play well out of position. Its high card strength is largely negated when the pot is raised or we're out of position. Although it's possible to make the best hand with one pair, it's hard to get paid when you're ahead and it's easy to pay off AK and AQ. You're able to power your way through this hand, but it's nothing to do with the merits of these hole cards.

I'm a net loser with KQs in online games, and frankly it's a leak I'm working on.

i'm fully aware of the dangers of playing the hand. especially out of position.

i don't always raise KQs UTG, and I don't always muck it...just like I don't always muck T9s UTG, but sometimes raise with it, or limp with it...

- Jordan

results...well...

he claimed to have folded KTo, with the K

I laughed...at him, and myself. poker is funny

- Jordan

I haven't read all the responses, but I'm sure you caught some flack for raising UTG with KQ.

I feel as if your goal here to was to represent the flush? If it wasn't than I think we need to raise the flop strong.

If your goal was to represent the flush, I don't see much use in raising to $48 on the turn, and leaving yourself with only $30. If he were a better player, and planned on calling, he would have put in the extra $30, leaving you committed with king high. If you flat called the flop, I think the only move is to push the turn.

It seems as if you had a decent read on the player, which you would need to make a play like this. Needless to say I hate the river play, but I think you realize that you got lucky there by having him fold.

I disagree with this because the way that this guy played the hand it is pretty obvious that he had 2 hands A) a big pocket pair with a heart, something like AQ again with a heart, though you can get him to fold if wrong and he did have A) then re-raising the flop probably would have lost the pot for you, because he may have moved in.

so I think that the way that you played the hand was exactly like a flush draw on all streets and wins you the pot in both occasions (unless a 4th heart hits) so I like this play I do it all the time with players that are capable of folding to such a play.