*Thread Introduction*

Ok,
As you may have read in the other thread about our SSHE/Sklansky discussions, Ive decided that it is a good topic to discuss and turn into something productive for everyone (Instead of turning into a RGP-style flame war). So, Im going to start out by saying that I've read TOP and THFAP by Sklansky/Malmuth, and they definitly helped shape my poker career. TOP is an absolute *MUST* read for any serious newcomer to the game who wants to win, because not only will it lay you a great foundation to build off of, the mathmatics of the game are laid out nicely and it has everything you need to at least give you an edge.
As far as advancing past those beginning ideas, I think it just takes alot of studying (There are dozens more holdem books from a dozen more authors), and most of all, experience. So with this thread, Id like to bring some of those experiences to the light. Things that we've learned from years on the table that have advanced our game past basic principals.

The topics on this thread should be about any Limit Holdem theory that you'd like to discuss. Book theory mixed with your own experiences, analysis of the authors writings, your game plans at the table, etc. Please don't turn this into a petty flame war thread or an ego-match. I think there is some good minds here at FCP, and hell, maybe even Daniel will be around to add some content for us. I'm going to start the thread off with a post about Sklansky/Malmuth and some of their ideals.

Ok,
I wanted to talk about Sklansky's newest book a little bit, SSHE. I see its a hot topic of debate around the internet, and in the card room where I deal at. Although I think they are great theorists, there are some things about the book I do not care for. I myself am a very selective aggressive limit holdem player, but there are times in the book I think they call for over-aggression that I think would get most of the newer players in heaps of trouble. Im going to take a few pages from the book and write about them here because they are things I don't agree with. But pointing these out, remember that there are 100's of pages I do agree with, and Im not slamming the authors, but rather just sharing why I disagree with what Im posting:

You have the Q 7 in middle position. One player limps in and another player raises. You mistakenly call. Everyone folds to the blinds, who both call. The limper calls. There are 10 small bets in the pot. The flop is: J 7 5, giving you middle pair, a backdoor-flush draw, and an overcard. It is checked to the preflop raiser, who bets. What do you do?

SSHE Reads: Raising is the only correct play. Calling or folding are both major mistakes. First, you could have the best hand, since the raiser may have been raising preflop with A-K or A-Q. Second, if your hand is not the best, a raise may drive out one of the other hands that could otherwise improve and win the pot even when you do improve. The key is that the pot is large and you must do everything possible to protect your hand and/or improve your chances of winning the pot.

I just can't raise in a spot like that. You have middle pair, in a 5-way pot, and players to act behind you yet after your action. You are assuming that the player raised with AK or AQ, when reality is, in a low limit game, They could just have easily raised with A-J, J-J, KJs, 7-7, 5-5, and I wouldnt even rule out J-10s. I understand his theory of raising to drive other hangers-on out of the hand, but in a low limit game, not only are those other players likely to call for another card anyways (How often do you hear "gotta see one more"), but the odds of getting 3-bet are pretty good. Now you're stuck in a pot that you jammed up, with middle pair/weak kicker and runner-runner flush draw, and now the pot is so big that those hangers on are just that more tempted to draw at. You're in hurt city here. With 11:1 pot odds, you could definitly take one off and see if you can connect on the turn, but if not, its time to fold. You can find better spots to get your chips in then situations like these. Some of his plays like this are way too high variance i.m.o.

-Blue58

First, left a post on the other forum, that I think is tasteful.

Anyway...

Dont have much time to type here...but I think you are right and wrong...well not really either, but this situation is just that, situational.

While true, in a pot such as this, if someone bets and its only called to me, no one else raises, I might raise it and find where Im at. If the original better re-raises obviously I know where Im at (unless of course, he just calls, and checks waiting for me to bet into his pair of Jacks)...

Anyway, this is one concept I did find trully intresting, the advocation of raising in this situation, so the last game I played, I made a case to try this quite a lot, and 4/6 pots that this came up in, I won, it was folded before the river (I was betting strongly)...true only six hands (and scare cards did help), but where normally someone checks it, I think it scares people to have someone come out of the gate that strong, espcially if a scare card comes higher than jacks.

But like I said, this is completely situational in my opinion and if you not careful and you are not getting any reads on your opponenets (which u should be getting), then you can run yourself into a brick wall.

Ive gone through Pokertracker and have noticed that I have picked up many more pots than I lost using this strateegy...I think this is obviously one of those marginal edge push situations.

So you are right, its not always going to work and if you're not careful, you could screw yourself.

But if u know what u are doing...it will help a lot.

PS. They should have put a "For Advanced Players" in the title of SSHE. I really think u need a decent amount of game time under your belt before anyone takes a look at this book.

Also...

Someone having a jack in their hand is possible (it is right in the median of hands that people like to play)...I think its far more possible that they are raising with a pair or higher face cards.

again, I was doing some datamining on Party with pokertracker and I went through the huge list of lowlimit players in there and looked at the hands that were shown down or flashed...players were much more likely to raise it up holding an Ace through Queen, less likely holding a jack (unless it was suited and it was 50-50 on that, about anyway...and unless of course they were on some sort of tilt and commited to trying to pull of the ultimate bluff with 7-2 off suit).

So if Im playing this hand and I raise and its called and check called after that, I think its possible I own the hand. I think its more likely they hold Queen something or higher.

Thats what I would think. Again a situational situation (damn I have said that word enough today)

It's not a beginners' book, and they assume that an intermediate player can understand situational play.

Don't believe me?



It's the first sentence of the introduction.

Really? No crap.

How many beginners read an introduction to a poker book, althoug they should...hell how many people read the introduction to novels (neil gaiman once went off about this, so in his introduction to a book I can remember, he wrote in the middle of it a great short story...and I bet a lot of people missed it).

All Im say, for Intermidiate players or advanced players on the cover would help keep some people out of trouble.

On twoplustwo some dude just recently (yesterday) posted about how he deposited his first 100 dollars on Party and following SSHE guidelines prompty lost it all...I dont think this is an isolated incident. He had also never read any other poker books, and hadnt played that much poker.

I think it should be but in big bold writing for the ignorant or beginners. If u dont know jack about what book to get as Im sure is almost everyones story when you are starting out, you need a little more guideline.