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Full Version: 1/2 hand...top pair weak kicker, huge turn draw
FCP Poker Forum > Poker Strategy Forum > No Limit Texas Hold'em Cash Games
pokerplayer24
6 handed 1/2 nl game

Dont have the hand history but i'll neaten it up as best I can

Stack sizes

UTG 350
Hero 285
BB 110

BB is super fish. Total donk is in the hole like 600 already. Pushes a ton with a mix of nothing and mediocre hands. Slowplays the goods all the way.

UTG is solid. Should note that by solid I mean he hasnt done anything crazy and has good hand selection preflop. He's also relatively passive.

Hero is on the button with A7 icon_suit_spade.gif

UTG raises to 6, 2 folds, Hero calls, sb folds, bb calls

Flop (3 handed pot 18.50)

A68 r (1 spade)

BB checks, utg bets 6, I raise to 24, BB cold calls, UTG calls

turn 5 icon_suit_spade.gif (pot 90.50)

BB bets 80 and is all in, UTG calls...I?

My problem here is that the BB could be somewhat weak and still have me beat.

I'm undecided as to whether or not pushing to get this heads up is the way to go or reevaluate after the river.
pckt10s
In this situation, one of them is bluffing and another has a made hand (one that beats your pair). It doesn't matter who has what. You only invested $30 and will still have a nice stack. I would fold to a bet of $80. just my opinion
gaddyjr
You definitely do not have the best hand right now. You are beat by either an A with a bigger kicker or a set. If you don't hit a spade you are dead and this pot is not worth drawing at. An all-in does not have the adequate fold equity

Just my opinion
AlphaOmega
QUOTE (gaddyjr)
You definitely do not have the best hand right now. You are beat by either an A with a bigger kicker or a set. If you don't hit a spade you are dead and this pot is not worth drawing at. An all-in does not have the adequate fold equity

Just my opinion


He can hit a spade, nine, or 4 and likely win this pot.
gaddyjr
QUOTE (AlphaOmega)
QUOTE (gaddyjr)
You definitely do not have the best hand right now. You are beat by either an A with a bigger kicker or a set. If you don't hit a spade you are dead and this pot is not worth drawing at. An all-in does not have the adequate fold equity

Just my opinion


He can hit a spade, nine, or 4 and likely win this pot.


True, but the 9 icon_suit_spade.gif and the 4 icon_suit_spade.gif are included there and that gives him only 13 outs.

Maybe only my opinion, but I would rather not CALL an all-in with only 13 outs vs. 33 dead cards.

Correct me if I'm wrong.
pokerplayer24
QUOTE (pckt10s)
In this situation, one of them is bluffing and another has a made hand (one that beats your pair). It doesn't matter who has what. You only invested $30 and will still have a nice stack. I would fold to a bet of $80. just my opinion


Nut flush draw and OESD so thats not an option.


I'm either calling or pushing those are my 2 plays.

I am about 90% sure that I can fold UTG with an all in as i'd put him on A10-AK here and my push would show a ton of strength as their is no side pot.

Mainly what I would like to know is if i'm ahead of the bb nearly enough to push UTG off his hand and do I even want to push him off his hand rather then just call and value bet the river if I hit one of my 15 outs.
jimmybaker04
QUOTE (gaddyjr)
QUOTE (AlphaOmega)
QUOTE (gaddyjr)
You definitely do not have the best hand right now.  You are beat by either an A with a bigger kicker or a set.  If you don't hit a spade you are dead and this pot is not worth drawing at.  An all-in does not have the adequate fold equity

Just my opinion


He can hit a spade, nine, or 4 and likely win this pot.


True, but the 9 icon_suit_spade.gif and the 4 icon_suit_spade.gif are included there and that gives him only 13 outs.

Maybe only my opinion, but I would rather not CALL an all-in with only 13 outs vs. 33 dead cards.

Correct me if I'm wrong.


You are wrong. We are getting better than 3 to 1 on our money and that is exactly what we need to make this chase. That is not including any extra cash we may get out of UTG if we hit, so with implied odds it is a must call.

No need or benefit to raise in hope of going HU
jimmybaker04
QUOTE (pokerplayer24)
QUOTE (pckt10s)
In this situation, one of them is bluffing and another has a made hand (one that beats your pair).  It doesn't matter who has what.  You only invested $30 and will still have a nice stack.  I would fold to a bet of $80.  just my opinion


Nut flush draw and OESD so thats not an option.


I'm either calling or pushing those are my 2 plays.

I am about 90% sure that I can fold UTG with an all in as i'd put him on A10-AK here and my push would show a ton of strength as their is no side pot.

Mainly what I would like to know is if i'm ahead of the bb nearly enough to push UTG off his hand and do I even want to push him off his hand rather then just call and value bet the river if I hit one of my 15 outs.



Any chance that the BB saw this flop w/ 79? His cold call of the bet/raise on the flop screams draw or monster. If he does hold that hand we really only have 9 outs to win the pot and 2 to split. If he holds a set, you have lost 1 out because that spade would pair the board for a house.

Do not semi-bluff into an empty side pot. You are going to lose value on your hand and respect at the table.
Scott3705
I don't think we have both beat here and unless UTG has AK, we're not getting him to fold and hoping we have the BB beat. We do however have a good price to call and take a card and hope to check the river down UI
Pokerdad2222
QUOTE (gaddyjr)
QUOTE (AlphaOmega)
QUOTE (gaddyjr)
You definitely do not have the best hand right now. You are beat by either an A with a bigger kicker or a set. If you don't hit a spade you are dead and this pot is not worth drawing at. An all-in does not have the adequate fold equity

Just my opinion


He can hit a spade, nine, or 4 and likely win this pot.


True, but the 9 icon_suit_spade.gif and the 4 icon_suit_spade.gif are included there and that gives him only 13 outs.

Maybe only my opinion, but I would rather not CALL an all-in with only 13 outs vs. 33 dead cards.

Correct me if I'm wrong.


Your wrong about the outs. we have 15. 9 spades and 6 non spade 4's and 9's. I dont think raising here does us much goos unless BB is on a stone cold bluff and we can get UTG to fold. he will be getting over 2-1 on his money though so he may stay in for a pot this big and he may already have a big hand. Even if he has trips though we still have 13 outs and are still getting the price we need. I call and hope the river secures the hand for us.
Scott3705
QUOTE (gaddyjr)
You definitely do not have the best hand right now. You are beat by either an A with a bigger kicker or a set. If you don't hit a spade you are dead and this pot is not worth drawing at. An all-in does not have the adequate fold equity

Just my opinion


See I really don't think we should be worrying about fold equity on the $0 side pot. Calling gives us a price an will allow us to make a small value bet ont he river improved. UI, I think UTG checks the river and we can check behind.
Jadaki
QUOTE (Pokerdad2222)
QUOTE (gaddyjr)
QUOTE (AlphaOmega)
QUOTE (gaddyjr)
You definitely do not have the best hand right now. You are beat by either an A with a bigger kicker or a set. If you don't hit a spade you are dead and this pot is not worth drawing at. An all-in does not have the adequate fold equity

Just my opinion


He can hit a spade, nine, or 4 and likely win this pot.


True, but the 9 icon_suit_spade.gif and the 4 icon_suit_spade.gif are included there and that gives him only 13 outs.

Maybe only my opinion, but I would rather not CALL an all-in with only 13 outs vs. 33 dead cards.

Correct me if I'm wrong.


Your wrong about the outs. we have 15. 9 spades and 6 non spade 4's and 9's. I dont think raising here does us much goos unless BB is on a stone cold bluff and we can get UTG to fold. he will be getting over 2-1 on his money though so he may stay in for a pot this big and he may already have a big hand. Even if he has trips though we still have 13 outs and are still getting the price we need. I call and hope the river secures the hand for us.


What hands are you putting them on?

Depending on reads, you could also count pairing your kicker as a possible out, aces up may win this pot.
EVallone
I think you have to call, given the pot odds. Then, if you make the flush or straight, you can try to get more money out of UTG. If not, you can check it down or fold, depending on your read. I see no reason to go all-in here, as getting the pot heads up will probably not help you win it, especially considering you put UTG on an ace with a better kicker.
Pokerdad2222
QUOTE (Jadaki)
QUOTE (Pokerdad2222)
QUOTE (gaddyjr)
QUOTE (AlphaOmega)
QUOTE (gaddyjr)
You definitely do not have the best hand right now. You are beat by either an A with a bigger kicker or a set. If you don't hit a spade you are dead and this pot is not worth drawing at. An all-in does not have the adequate fold equity

Just my opinion


He can hit a spade, nine, or 4 and likely win this pot.


True, but the 9 icon_suit_spade.gif and the 4 icon_suit_spade.gif are included there and that gives him only 13 outs.

Maybe only my opinion, but I would rather not CALL an all-in with only 13 outs vs. 33 dead cards.

Correct me if I'm wrong.


Your wrong about the outs. we have 15. 9 spades and 6 non spade 4's and 9's. I dont think raising here does us much goos unless BB is on a stone cold bluff and we can get UTG to fold. he will be getting over 2-1 on his money though so he may stay in for a pot this big and he may already have a big hand. Even if he has trips though we still have 13 outs and are still getting the price we need. I call and hope the river secures the hand for us.



I tought about that is well if he UTG has a strong ace. I think you can maybe count the 6's as 1 total out but we are getting the right price anyway. I think UTG is checking a low river anyway so if we do hit a 6 we wont have to pay to fiind out if its good or not. Then the value bet beomes a question but thats not what we are worried about.

What hands are you putting them on?

Depending on reads, you could also count pairing your kicker as a possible out, aces up may win this pot.
DaBruins
if it were me i wouldnt push. 80 in a 1/2 game is a big enough bet to get the UTG player out if hes just holding trash and wont pay you off on the river anyway. Sure at this point the UTG player is getting 3:1 odds to call but he has to beat 2 people in order to win this hand and the fact that we just called is a signal that we have a pretty strong hand, i dont think calling is a weak play at all, and if youre scared to lose 80 here then just fold.
spikymarv99
Here is a different twist on the situation: you are behind right now.... I can't see anyway around it. You should NOT go all-in because you will get called. The real question is will the guy who called the all-in pay you off if you hit your hand? If he will, then you call and hope to catch your outs. If he won't, I don't believe you are getting the right price to call (current or implied). If he had something like A-K he would push to shut out any draws. It smells like a monster to me; he wants you to call or push. Another question to analyze about whether to call is if you don't improve, can you lay down the hand to a value bet on the river?
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