AlphaOmega
Friday, January 20th, 2006, 3:37 PM
2/4 5-max (5 handed)
Reads:
Just sat down
Preflop: Hero is BB with J

10
UTG bets, CO folds, Button folds, SB calls, Hero calls.
Flop: (6 SB)
J

4

K
SB checks,
Hero bets, UTG calls, SB calls
Turn: (4.5 BB)
Q
SB checks, Hero checks, UTG checks
River: (4.5 BB)
6
SB checks,
Hero bets...
Goot?
Limit Player
Friday, January 20th, 2006, 7:09 PM
I'd bet my draw on the turn.
zimmer4141
Friday, January 20th, 2006, 7:57 PM
I think anything that has you beat is calling and hands you beat are folding. Don't like it really. If UTG bets, I'm on the fence as to whether I call or fold.
Jdr999
Friday, January 20th, 2006, 8:45 PM
QUOTE (Limit Player)
I'd bet my draw on the turn.
Also, if it was just the SB and you, I would bet it. But because you have a player yet to act, I would check.
Also, UTG raised pre-flop, and didn't bet the flop. And flush draw hit.
Limit Player
Friday, January 20th, 2006, 8:48 PM
QUOTE (Zimmer4141)
I think anything that has you beat is calling and hands you beat are folding. Don't like it really. If UTG bets, I'm on the fence as to whether I call or fold.
bet/call turn, check/fold river if the draw doesn't hit?
zimmer4141
Friday, January 20th, 2006, 8:51 PM
QUOTE (Limit Player)
QUOTE (Zimmer4141)
I think anything that has you beat is calling and hands you beat are folding. Don't like it really. If UTG bets, I'm on the fence as to whether I call or fold.
bet/call turn, check/fold river if the draw doesn't hit?
Yes, I forgot the turn. Definitely keep the lead. You'll be amazed at how many players fold to turn aggression.
Steppin Razor
Friday, January 20th, 2006, 8:54 PM
I'd check the river. UTG's raising range is PP AA-66, AK, AQ, AJ, AT, maybe A9s. He is too likely to fold hands you beat and call/raise hands you don't. If he's got 99, give him a chance to bet it.
GT123
Saturday, January 21st, 2006, 12:09 AM
bet the turn, no one has done anything to show that you are beat. At this level, many players will peel the flop with nothing.
Check the river to try and induce a bluff.
MrNiceGuy
Saturday, January 21st, 2006, 12:40 AM
Definitely bet the turn.
On the river, check/call is definitely a better line than bet/fold unless you're up against a couple of superdonks. What calls the river that you beat? Do you really think you can get a K to fold?
AlphaOmega
Saturday, January 21st, 2006, 8:09 AM
What makes anyone so sure that I'm beat on the river?
I'm pretty sure that Kx raises the flop or bets the turn because of the flush draw, and Qx doesn't make sense unless it's a two pair hand in which case they would have bet the turn. Even bad players won't peel to middle pair when the pot has been raised pre-flop.
And I think we can get plenty of calls from hands that we beat. Any passively played mid pocket pair, a pair of 4's, A6, possibly Ace high.
Most of those hands are checking behind on the river.
I think b/fing the river is better than c/cing because I think I'm ahead here very often and getting value from hands that are checking behind but calling if bet into. Obviously no better hand is raising me, but the only hand that beats us is that flush draw. No other hand makes sense.
I'm torn about this because I do believe I should bet the turn, but given the way that the hand played, betting the river has to have value, right?
oceansize
Saturday, January 21st, 2006, 8:23 AM
I don't know, your flop bet and turn check has you representing the flush, however the river bet still seems suspicious to me. I'm thinking that the UTG will at the very least call, with a starting hand of something like AK, if he doesn't raise. See the problem is, he is free to check the turn if he made a hand or is still on a draw, say, AT or heavens forbid Kx suited to the spades( a lame hand to open with a bet preflop, so I'm still leaning towards AK AQ) . But you can't know. I'm gonna have a hard time calling if he raises on his river action, but you shouldn't be surprised if your Jacks don't stand up and everyone calls with a Q or K in the whole.
What happened anyway?
zimmer4141
Saturday, January 21st, 2006, 9:08 AM
So what calls your river bet that you're ahead of?
Steppin Razor
Saturday, January 21st, 2006, 9:22 AM
QUOTE (AlphaOmega)
I'm pretty sure that Kx raises the flop or bets the turn because of the flush draw, and Qx doesn't make sense unless it's a two pair hand in which case they would have bet the turn. Even bad players won't peel to middle pair when the pot has been raised pre-flop.
And I think we can get plenty of calls from hands that we beat. Any passively played mid pocket pair, a pair of 4's, A6, possibly Ace high.
Most of those hands are checking behind on the river.
I think b/fing the river is better than c/cing because I think I'm ahead here very often and getting value from hands that are checking behind but calling if bet into. Obviously no better hand is raising me, but the only hand that beats us is that flush draw. No other hand makes sense.
I'm torn about this because I do believe I should bet the turn, but given the way that the hand played, betting the river has to have value, right?
Kx, AQ or even AJ, may be afraid to bet (need reads for these hands) since you did call a PF raise and lead at the K high flop. I don't think you get a call from a pair <10 or Ace high on a 3 paint-board like this.
Let them think you bluffed the flop to 'defend' your blind.
AlphaOmega
Saturday, January 21st, 2006, 11:35 AM
I think I am biased on this one because I did get called by a worse hand on the river. How often that happens, I'm not sure. I'm just trying to find more spots where I can value bet.
What we did get out of this is that we should be leading the turn. C/cing the river is probably best too because, normally, no better hand is folding, no worse hand is calling. We can also pick off bluffs if someone wants to bluff the river spade.
Thanks guys.
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