Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (8 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Preflop: Hero is Button with K:diamond:, Q:heart:.
2 folds, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, CO calls.

Flop: (9.33 SB) 4:spade:, Q:diamond:, 6:diamond: (4 players)
MP1 bets, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, CO calls.

Turn: (10.66 BB) T:diamond: (4 players)
MP1 bets, MP2 folds, CO calls, Hero calls.

River: (13.66 BB) 4:club: (3 players)
MP1 bets, CO folds, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 15.66 BB

Should I fold this river? Raise the turn? I just turned into a calling station.

Nothing wrong with how you played it, no sense raising the turn, since you're getting 3-bet by better hands and all you have is a pair at this point along with the 2nd nut flush draw. The pot on the river is big and you're closing the action, pretty easy call getting such good odds. I don't see how a fold is even possible at this point personally.

NH

Thank you.

Don't fold the river for only one bet in that pot. You probably aren't winning unless someone overvalued QJ or Qtrash, but you have to see it down.

If villain never does anything out of line in multiway pots, then I really think you should at least consider folding the river. While other hands are possible, I find it hard to believe you're going to see a hand that you beat here more than 1/30 times, let alone the 1/15 you'd need to profitably call.

I can't imagine I would've folded this at the table, though. But it hindsight, with at least a decent read that villain never makes "creative" plays in these situations, I think a fold would probably be the best play.

I want to raise that turn sooo bad. But that's almost as wrong as folding the river.

Whats wrong with raising the turn

If 3-bet we call and fold the river UI.

If just called we get to see a free showdown UI and can bet the river if we improve.

I don't like putting in 3-bets on the turn.

I don't like pushing people off hands we beat anyway.

If we had the Ad, I would have more incentive to raise the turn.

and I don't like folding TP2K in 16 BB pots.

When you're beat you're beat. Doesnt matter if the pot is 8 bets or 20.

If we get 3-bet on this turn i'd say we are never good on the river.


But yea screech I agree that i'd probly be more likely to do it with the A along with top pair rather then the K.

I think this is the first hand that I've ever posted that pretty much everyone has agreed with.... :shock:

I think I was thinking exactly like screech during the hand... I hesitated on the turn for so long and I wanted to raise that turn, but in the end I was either WA or WB, so I called down.

Zach

makes no sense to me to put in the same numbver of bets in a 16BB pot, and not see sd, as we could see sd for 2 bets as well.

what am I missing

Nothing just no need to overvalue sd's.

Just because the pots huge doesnt mean we should miss out on value in an attempt to see a showdown.

Rereading everyones responses I think calling the turn is the way to go but with AQ A I think this turn is an easy raise. The only reason I wouldnt raise this turn with the K is the potential that we are drawing to the second best flush or someone already has the nut flush.

no need to overval;ue a 16 BB showdown?

you're thinking about raising TP with 9 outs if you are behind (and I mean with the Ace ) then folding to a 3-bet and river lead UI...

I'll overvalue a sd anyday as opposed to over valuing my opponents re-actions. You all that rely so much on what vilan does to make these folds...must not play the same opponents I do.

the pot is 16 BB...please don't play your way into a fold becuase you want to squeeze an extra bet out on the turn. Yuo might get that bet anyway on a river that you can raise (assuming we have the Ace for simpliciy here)

I sd 33% and win 58%, so I'm defintely not calling down to many losers "just to play sherrif"

No i'd call the turn 3-bet and fold the river UI.

Also I said looking back i'd just call with the K .

And dunno maybe PS is that different from PP. But the move up through the limits has been easy thus far.

I really dont think we get 3-bet on this turn all that much. What 3-bets us other then a flush.

And yea i'd love to see a free showdown or win an additional 2 bb the times I hit.

on Party 2/4 at least...raiing turn and folding UI on river after a turn 3-bet would be bad w/o reads in a 16 BB pot.

ok..we agree to disagree.

you like an extra bet (which you get sometimes anyways when you let him bet the river) and I like sd in HUGE pots.

This is very good thinking, IMHO.

Jeff

Raise the turn. If you're 3-bet, call and fold the river UI.

If he calls, check down a non-diamond river.

wow.

I don't hate the raise, but I hate folding a 16 BB pot when we can see showdown for two bets.
Getting the extra bet in on the turn is not worth the risk of folding the best hand.
I think this is really bad.

Actuary, I think this is where your fundamental approach to the game is flawed, and this is from many posts I have seen of yours. The goal is not to get to a showdown. If you get 3-bet here, the only hand I see us beating is a semi-bluff with the naked Ad. Raising lets us dictate the action, see a showdown for free on the river if we miss, and get an extra bet when we hit our diamond draw or 2 pair. Raise/call/Fold River UI only costs us one more bet than call/call, and I think we're missing value when we're ahead.

You can't be afraid of folding the best hand. Occasionally you will fold the best hand to a maniac, but by becoming passive to see a showdown, you will miss value too often IMO. I would reccomend to you reading Super System 2 and reading Jennifer Harman's section on LHE. At the limits you are approaching, the passive approach will not work because you're not going to get free bets with your huge hands. You have to get more aggressive and win more small pots. You can see a showdown more often at low limits where you get free bets from hands that shouldn't be in there. Those hands won't be in there at 5/10 and above, so you have to work with smaller pots.

The way villian has played the hand, we get 3-bet a lot here. He's trying to extract value.

Anyway, like Actuary has said, it is much better to put ourselves in a position to show this hand down. We don't have a monster and we are likely way behind to villian. Luckily, we have a chance to catch up. Why play into his hands wiht a raise?

Zimmer

I'm not sure if 3/6 is the cutiff, 2/4 is my highest so far.

At 2/4 on Party, this is never a Raise-Call fold river UI.

Maybe the information is more reliable at 5/10.
Maybe I'll never play 5/10 because I can't adapt.

so, perhaps I"m not qualified to speak on this hand, being that it's 3/6.

My BB/100 over 40k hands (all I've played since ever playing LHE) would indicate this fundamental flaw is not effecting me too much. Although, who's to say what I could be winning. And you do make the distinction for higher limits, so I'll take that into consideration.

When 6th nut flushes are getting capped on paired boards, i'm not ready to fold a 16 BB pot because I'm certain my TP is no good.

again I'm not going to SD too often according to PT, even though my posts may indicate that..its a selection of hands. I may miss value raises on turns and rivers...and it's true I hate to raise fold..but I see so many donkey raises, that folding to would be silly

Now, I am always confused by donk bets. But, if he's looking to extract value I think he c/r a LOT more than he donk bets the turn.

This might be one of my leaks but I could be wrong. I always look at donk bets as either weak attempts to semi bluff or betting an improved hand thats not good enough to check raise rather then that they just hit their hand and are trying to extract max value.

If you just call river what are you doing if bet into by the mp1.b

OK, I was under the impression you were playing 5/10. I know that it's a completely different game at 2/4. There, you can play straightforward, let idiots call as much as they want, and take their free money. As you move up, you need to raise/fold much more than you will bet/call.

oh.

and I am afraid to fold the best hand in a 16 BB pot.

and damnit, I'm not afraid to say that.

Raise and cry if 3-bet. It could be the easiest fold in the world, but my sanity is worth 1BB.

If you had a stronger hand like a set or 2 pair with a diamond draw or something like that, you can make a case for raising, but all you have is a pair at this point and your almost always behind here.

What do you think mp1 is playing this way? What kind of hand do you put your opponent on where raising actually has value? The only conceivable hand he may overplay this way that you beat is QJ. Your beat by pretty much everything else, but you have a draw on the turn, which makes calling the correct play. Your opponent has likely made a flush or has a set and does not want it to get checked around, so he bets. Raising will usually get you 3-bet in situations like this.

Raising the turn is seriously really bad in this spot. I can guarantee that your behind on the turn with these lines 99% of the time unless mp1 is a complete donkey.

welcome back!

I'm a maniac poster now!

I cant stop!


good to see you!

lol, hi actuary. i couldn't resist making your infinite wisdom my own. nice to talk to you again.

been wrapped up in the every day routine of a life that leads nowhere too much lately.

started playing NL home games about a month ago, playing once or twice a week. haven’t had a loosing a session since I started up again.

Found quite the juicy game where people play that apparently like loosing their money.

Can't complain about that. poker is making up for the slack that my job is giving me. this is the slowest month in the service industry.

Huh?

How does a c/r extract value? It blasts the other player out of teh pot, and will cause us to slow down unless we have a monster.

So a c/r picks up 2BB.

If he bets, he's likely to get a call from MP, and at least a call from us. But by betting, he has the added potential of getting many more bets when we raise with TP. We shouldn't raise with TP here, but a lot of people do as is evident by this post, and most players know this.

i'm with actuary and screech. When pots are as big as this one, I'm looking to get to showdown quickly and cheaply. All raising accomplishes is making this pot much more complicated than it needs to be.

OK, with a raise and a 3-bet behind him, I think a check and letting his opponents bet the hand for him is a lot more effective than donk betting this turn.

Zim,

If he checks, the most likely bet is going to come from the last player. His c/r may then shut out CO, and warn hero about the strength of his hand.
All CO has done so far is raise/call the flop, that means he likes his hand a little, not a lot. That 3rd flush card is going to slow people down a bit. There's no reason to suspect CO and Hero are going to war.

But if villian leads, CO will get trapped for 1 more BB. Hero will then probably raise, because that's what flop 3-bettors do. CO can then 3-bet.

I guess the whole letting your opponents bet for you thing is more applicable to NL.