How did I lose control of this hand? The turn and flop play is where I am confused. When villian raised the turn I put him squarely on an ace, not a flush draw. When I bet the river what could he put me on?


Hand #10599969-19 at SnG-0015s (No Limit Hold'em Sit and Go)
Powered by UltimateBet
Started at 28/Dec/05 20:42:43

jayisdabest is at seat 0 with 1515.
RedRockrOU812 is at seat 1 with 1820.
bspgt is at seat 2 with 1450.
arthurbryant is at seat 3 with 1585.
ArmanVahdati is at seat 4 with 1715.
mtoutlaw is at seat 5 with 1235.
pokersnail is at seat 6 with 1540.
notoriousBIB is at seat 7 with 1440.
blakheart is at seat 8 with 1470.
H Jiblomi is at seat 9 with 1230.
The button is at seat 0.

RedRockrOU812 posts the small blind of 15.
bspgt posts the big blind of 30.

jayisdabest: -- --
RedRockrOU812: -- --
bspgt: -- --
arthurbryant: -- --
ArmanVahdati: -- --
mtoutlaw: -- --
pokersnail: -- --
notoriousBIB: -- --
blakheart: Qd Js
H Jiblomi: -- --

Pre-flop:

arthurbryant folds. ArmanVahdati folds. mtoutlaw
folds. pokersnail folds. notoriousBIB folds.
blakheart raises to 75. H Jiblomi calls.
jayisdabest folds. RedRockrOU812 folds. bspgt
calls.

Flop (board: 4h Qc Ah):

bspgt checks. blakheart bets 150. H Jiblomi calls.
bspgt folds.

Turn (board: 4h Qc Ah 7s):

blakheart checks. H Jiblomi bets 190. blakheart
calls.

River (board: 4h Qc Ah 7s 6h):

blakheart bets 160. H Jiblomi goes all-in for 815.
blakheart folds. H Jiblomi is returned 655
(uncalled).

weak turn bet
weak river bet

maybe u have a weak hand?

maybe I could of bet more on the river, but the weak turn call looks like a draw. Then the draw gets there and I make what should look like a value bet.

dont think your opponents think. ever.

I hope you at least had two pair on the flop. The flop bet was good, but when he called you kind of backed down showing weakness as if you were just kidding with the flop bet. just my opinion though

The flop bet is somewhat (not exceedingly, but somewhat) bad...

and the turn check/call is abysmal. You have to fold this turn.

Fold the turn. You're almost always behind.

As played check behind on the river.

What do you think he's going to call with that you beat right there ?

Exactly, what a horrible bet on the river. You were probably beat... and you call it a "VALUE" bet??!?!?

Betting there only accomplishes 1 of 3 things:

1. You get raised and have to decide to call or not (probably beat). You lose your river bet AT LEAST.
2. He calls with a weak ace and you are beat (losing more chips than you needed to).
3. He folds. You don't get any "value" from your "value bet".

Either way if you have the best hand, it's a WEAK "best hand" and NOT worthy of a river bet.

Exactly what the previous poster said... what would he call you with here? ONLY A HAND THAT BEATS YOU!

But hey, keep playing like that, and please tell me your username and where you play!

Oh yeah, and you NEVER had control of the hand... he had an ace and had control the entire time... he was just making you THINK that you had control.

And for cripes sake, HE DID NOT "RAISE" on the TURN.. he BET.

Again, horrible players who cannot even learn the terminology.

You are completely outclassed for whatever level you are playing.

You are adding no new content to this thread, your comments are longer than they need to be, and the tone of your post is very sarcastic and self-righteous.

We're all guilty of it, some more often than others, but it doesn't get called out enough.

Not +EV for learning.

Why are you such an a-hole?

The flop bet was an attempt to see if the pair of queens was good, his call showed me he most likely had at least an ace or a flush draw.

On the turn his bet looked like he had an ace and was worried about the flush. I agree my call on the turn was poor.

When the third flush card came out I made a bet designed to look like a value bet. If I was on a flush draw I could have played it like I did on the turn and the river.

This is not a standard play for me, I was simply tryingto run a bluff.

If I wanted to be insulted I would post in general where the flaming is regular. Please use some courtesy when posting in strategy

Fold pre-flop. Do you want to make money or put yourself in marginal situations with marginal hands?

Read the freaking post again. He didnt say he WAS value betting this river. he said he was trying to play like he hit the flush and was value betting this river as a bluff. Seems like a smart guy like yourself would have understood that.

OP,
go ahead and fold this turn if you arent going to bet out at it. You cant check and call in No limit like this wiht your hand.

if you fold QJo in a SNG, after its been folded all the way around to you pre-flop, you are way too weak-tight

You should have checked the flop, you have a pair and know about where you are at so value betting that is to strong for your position unless you have been pushing your stack around before. He most have hit two pair if you ask me. fold on the first bet against you a pair after the flop in my research doesn't win much and not very likely unless last. You give him credit on a border line play because you have no one fearing you.

Also you cann't bluff by an infromation bet after the flop, you have to start out that way and not being behind him makes a bluff very hard ; you mostly need a pair to rep the board so without a more concrete hand and a semibluff stance it is being to weak. How can you bluff when you do not even know the player, maybe you were being emotional and throwing in a vanity shot, that kind of hand is to much a problem unless you are on the other side.

sweet new terms i am adding to my poker vocabulary.

semibluff stance: this is when, without looking at your cards, you stand up from the table and bend your knees and enter the crane position, then you declare "i have aces, i have aces, i have aces..." and remove a fan from your pocket. with your fan you blow all of your chips forward into the pot with one motion. then you titter gleefully, because you could very well have aces. that's why this stance is so dangerous and soft banned at major tournaments.

vanity shot: sounds dirty, im not touching this one

Some how I missed this the last couple days..

I'm just curious how you can value bet/bluff at the same time?

First time that I ever heard it was well. Could be a tricky play but I would only use it in live play and if I really felt the opponent thought I was chasing. On second thought, I would probably never use it but you never know.

pychology: thinks he can make opp think he is value betting ; has term bluff mixed for any deception. May believe in an even even situation can make foolish play that opp sees as domination.

Sorry about the confusion with the title- I clearly did not bet the river for value- it was an attempt to get my opponent to fold.

Not trying to get carried away here. Let my try to explain my play.


Preflop-

No one was in the pot so I made a standard raise with QJ for position. I was called by someone with better position.

I made middle pair on the flop with two hearts on it. I made a half size pot bet to gather information, I got called. Up to this point I think the play is ok. I could have checked the flop, but I am generally more aggressive than that. If he checks behind I have no idea where I stand, and if he is on the flush draw I don't want to give him a free card.

The turn is where I screwed up. I checked figuring I was behind. He made a small bet, I called. No way I should have called, But I lost my mind a bit.

On the river the third heart arrived. At that time I decided I would make a bluff at the pot. I bet small enough to make it look like I wanted a call, I gave my opponent credit for putting me on a flush draw. That would be consistent with my play up to that point.

Sure the play is wrong from a straightforward type of thinking. And yes, I will admit I mostly play live where I can get a better read of my opponents.

The real question is- Do you guys reccommend always playing in a straight forward manner when playing online? Only play straight forward when playing sit n gos?

I know if I am at a casino I will show the qj- admit I was gooofing around and get people to pay me off for the next hour. Does all this go away online?

Yes online is straight and the lower levels are very loose. Every internet player is looser because the rounds are shorter, even the PS deep stacked are only 30 mins, Also the size makes players agg , So your bluff that you want opp to think is a to be called hand thus he folds is to profound for that level you would have to be playing 300d buyin stng to use that blinds are 12 mins fast the normal live is 1 hr...

The only show of hand play I use is to show a very bad player that he was right to fold (this when he folds against the odds), your idea is done about 5oox per hr over the net thus very know.