Blinds 150-300, I have average stack of 5500, I am in the BB. UTG is big stack at table, he has 15k, and limps, he will not be overaggressive in marginal situations, Button has stack of 5k and limps, sb folds.

Play is on me in the BB. Should I check, or raise? If I raise, how much should I raise it to?

Thank you, I'm in a disagreement with friends.

I'd check, being out of position with AQ is suicide.

Weeeee a fellow upstate New Yorker.

Anyways...this is a nice little conundrum. I think you have to balance here the fact that you would like to get money in when you are ahead or in situations where you can only get paid preflop (ie if an ace flops 77 is going to fold to a flop bet). However, you are very OOP against a monster stack UTG limper as well as a button limper. I might throw a check in here if you think a normal raise wouldn't chase both of them-you don't want to play this against both players.

However, if you think you can isolate, by all means go for it. This is moving time in a tourney and you need to push situations when you have hands worth pushing. I would consider jamming here if you will be ok if something like 88 calls you. You will snag 750 enough times to make it profitable, and you will eliminate the need for post-flop decision making. Also, you would be surprised at how often people show love to AJ and KQ. However, as I wouldn't jam with a hand like QQ here, a jam with AQ limits my range to other players, so I would probably make it 1200.

I'd have to have a good read that UTG will fold to a 5x re-raise after limping unless he has a decent starting hand. The last thing that I want is for him to call my raise with position on me. The other problem is that if UTG calls, then the button is getting good odds to call with position on both of you.

2/3 of the time, the flop will miss you and now you're OOP to two players who can kill your stack.

I check here which disguises my hand since I could have any two cards and see what develops.

bears, whaddya think of a jam here?

Also-just to make sure my point is clear. If I don't think isolation is possible, I check. If it is, I go for it. :wink:

5,200 to win 1,050 - if I get called, I'm either slightly behind or way behind.

I think that if my stack was shorter, I would consider jamming a more viable option. The blinds are about to pass me and my M is around 11 so I would still be in decent shape.

I don't think the reward is worth the risk here.

I cant see being way behind after two limpers. AA, KK, and AK in either position are very likely to be raising. If you discount those hands, jamming is really a play for 1050 plus a 45:55 shot at the 5200. (The chances that I dominate are offset by the chances of the 3 big ones).

If I can get 1/3 folds here (which I think is highly likely) and one caller that Im a 45:55 dog to the other 2/3 of the time, jamming is worth $2200 on the plus side less 1887 on the minus side, so its +323 in EV.

If I check and no A or Q hits (2/3 of the time) I am probably done with the hand since Im OOP, I cant lead, and one of the other two is going to bet. The 1/3 of the time an A or Q hits its going to be very hard to get paid anything if Im ahead, and will go for a ride if Im behind.

Overall I think jamming is the right tcEV play. Since we are far from the
money that also makes it the right $EV play. The other positive is that it sends a message that you are going to defend your big blind, and not give a lot of cheap limp looks at it. (The "low buy in" answer is probably also jam, since you are going to get called by a lot of hands you dominate or are at least 60:40 favorite).

Hmmm...Interesting....I think that you can't easily discount a limp from UTG with one of the three big hands that dominate you and I don't think that any hand you dominate with AQ would call your jam.

It's funny because I limped from UTG in a tourney yesterday with AKo - it got to the BB who jammed after a couple of other limpers. The stacks were deeper than this scenario but I called because I didn't think he had AA or KK and thought that he might be trying to buy the pot. He had AQo and I doubled up.

I think that 1 of the 3 will fold like you said but if you don't discount the three big hands, how does that affect your EV calculation? Is it still positive?

yup

I would be all-in preflop 100% here, but there's nothing wrong with checking. Both plays work fine in this situation.

Gobears' initial response about raising 5xbb is exactly what I was thinking. Don't do that without a read, etc.

Thanks guys, I was in an argument with my friend about the hand. I told him without great reads I would usually check, but if not checking that I would jam and force the action for the 1000+ in the middle. He contends that raising it up to 1000 is the right play and I really dont understand it. As it happened he put it to 1000 and got min raised by UTG and then he mucked saying it was obvious UTG had AA or KK. Overall I thought it was a horrible play, but thanks for the input as most of you agreed the only options were to check or push, glad to see that I'm in the same thinking. I really think its a pretty standard simple play, but it sure is causing quite the commotion with him :-)

It depends on how many pairs you put in his range. If you put all of them in its still positive about $110. If you limit him to 77+ it turns it to about -$100. Even with the -EV it may still be worthile to jam given the big increase in your stack.

Will players really limp with AA, KK UTG at a full table? Thats just awful until bubble/payout time. If you leave in the AK but take out the two big pairs you are still in the +100 range.

i check. Big stack limping from UTG ? You gotta ask yourself why a big stack is limping in a raise/fold position with a big stack. I smell trap with a big hand or a medium pair that the big stack will be happy to call pushes behind him. If you are short stack its a no brainer push...just don't be surprised when big stack turn over a pair of nines and your flipping a coin for your tournament life.

Coin flips and 60/40s are ok for short stacks and big stacks but if im medium stack im looking for better situations to get my money in.

I would take the same line as the OPs friend, but a little more of a raise to like 1500, and if UTG reraises I'm out. There is no need to push with AQ with a medium stack. I agree UTG limp is VERY suspicious and probably indicates a monster holding. Needing more info to confirm my read, and acting last with no raise yet, I will give it a shot. Could win the hand right there, and like I said the reraise confirms for me I'm dominated and I can lay it down. I don't like checking because if he does have you dominated you are prob going to lose all your chips if you both hit the flop. I am prob wrong I would appreciate any replies telling me so.

The reason you push is because you are out of position to both players. You need a strong read in order to make a raise here and believe the other two players will fold. This is what BEARS was saying. You go all in here instead of rasing often because you dont want to face a difficult situation out of position. I like the check or push line, either one unless I have a a great read on both players and feel they are limping to get a cheap flop. [/b]

Along with what the above poster wrote. I just think it is too easily to be outplayed by putting in 1000-1500 out of position to two players. The only good thing that can happen is if they both fold. If one raises you quit, and if one checks or calls you are really screwed playing a big pot out of position with AQ.

The more I think about it the more I like the push instead of the check...I don't know its close to me between pushing and checking, but I think that raising a standard amount just leaves you with more difficutl decisions later. I feel if you are going to raise standard and fold to any raise coming over the top, that you will be dropping your hand not only to QQ-AA but also to 99,1010,jj.

I also forgot that my friend said he folded because it was a min raise on his raise. He said after he raised it to 1000, if the player had pushed him in he would have called, suspecting 99-jj. I really disagree with that line of thinking and it is probably why I just went and left it out, because I thought it was ridiculous.

I agree push is way better than a check. But, you are going to be a hugh underdog or a small underdog (or a lucky dog if a fish calls with AJ) if you push and get called. It would be like pushing with 33. I think you have too large a stack to risk pushing here. Same reason it's I think it's OK to fold to a reraise, you are an underdog to all the examples you listed. And I completely agree I am in bad shape and have difficult decisions ahead of me if someone calls my raise without a reraise, but I will still be better off than if I checked. Can you fold with no bet to you, maybe check and fold in the dark(unless QQQ flops!)

Very good discussion!

pushing here is too reckless. you're risking 5200 to win 1000. hands that call have you beat most of the time. calling here isnt optimal either, since you're oop, you'd much rather play this hand heads up rather than 3-handed.

raise to 1000 to try to isolate, then lead out w/ 1500 regardless of the flop.

The only reason to play it this way is to pick up FE if you miss the flop. If he's being tricky and slowplaying a good hand, he either reraises here or hes not folding when youve committed half your stack up to the point of the flop bet.

What other hands would call 1ooo after a limp, and what does he put you on when you raise to 1000? In most cases he will have a medium pair and put you on a pair or 2 high cards.

Now you miss the flop, and, even if it doesnt hit him, it is a very non-threatening board, because the majority of your hands would be 2 high cards or pairs lower than his. Since he has such a large stack, I dont see you picking up any FE. Now half your stack is committed, you are OOP and have at most 6 outs.

If you are going to attempt a long play here, it should be a stop and go. At least your flop raise has some teeth to it at that point.

I think a push is the best way to go here. Over the christmas break, I played a few sng's, and used this maneuver a few times when the situation dictates. Sure, there may be times when your opponent(s) want to put all their money in with a small pocket pair (ie. 3's in one of the situations I put myself in), but overall, I believe you will win the pot uncontested more times than not, and even if you do et a caller, you have outs. 8)