Here's another one..let me know..I still want responses..

For these purposes, players will be typical TAG.

2/4 NL

Relevant Stacks
UTG: 350
CO: 400
Small blind: 200
Hero: 550

Bottom two from the blinds..

Playing three pair out of position..

UTG, CO, Small Blind all call, we're in the big blind with 4 2 , Hero checks.

Pot: 16 dollars
Flop: 2 4 J

SB checks, Hero..?

I like leading out here for $12 or so and I'm not dissapointed if I take it down here or get one call or get raised. If I get raised I'm gonna reraise. We almost certainly have the best hand right now and need ro make villian pay yo draw to his 5 outer. I find that if we lead here we are more likely to get raised by AJ, KJ, QJ, or even J10.


Our play here is to go for a check/raise or to lead out and bet. I prefer, personally to check/raise. This can go sour though, very quickly. For our purposes, we'll lead out.

SB checks, Hero bets 15, UTG folds, CO calls, SB folds.

It's very unlikely the CO is on any kind of draw. It's likely a hand like QJ or KJ. He's a tight player that has shown down quality hands and uses his position effectively.

Pot: 46 Dollars
Turn: 9

Board: 2 4 J 9

Hero..?

I like a check raise here too. We are pretty sure we still have the best hand and it tells the villian that we took a shot at the flop (w a weak J possibly or even 2nd pair) and are now ready to give it up. I want to be pretty sure villian will bet out here if I check though. He may check behind with something like J10.

This a relatively safe card. It's possible CO had 99, but unlikely. This being a safe card, I like to check/raise. I think this is our opportunity to lay the hammer down. Worst case scenario, river comes a Q or K, or, god forbid a J.

Hero checks, CO bets 25, Hero raises..? I think this where we bring the heat. There's 96 in the pot, I think we need to take it to 100, making him pay 75 more to catch. For our purposes, CO bets 25, Hero raises to 100, CO smooth calls 100.

It's very likely we have the best hand right now. CO wouldn't be playing J9, would've raised with Jacks, and is very unlikely to be holding 99. J4, J2, 24, and 92 are all out of the question.

Pot: 246
River; J
Final board: 2 4 J 9 J

Well, that couldn't have been a worse card. We're now beat by any J(which is a likely holding, KJ, QJ), any 9, and most any 4 and really any pocket pair.

Our play on the river is..?

Questions I'd like to know the answers to.

Your thoughts on the river play?

I think there is no question that we have to give up on the river. I don't know if that's too weak but if we bet we are bluffing off a bunch of chips to a guy who most likely just made trips. We will most definitly have to fold to a raise and villian will only lay down hands like 88, 77 if we make a big enough bet. I'm not prepared to risk more chips with now a nothing hand in this spot. I think we have to ask ourselves what hand can villian be holding that he will fold here after calling 2 big relative bets on the flop and turn. The answer is not many. We certainly do not get villian to fold enough times to make it a profitable play.

Do you bet more or less on any of the streets?

I like your betting amounts on all streets

Do we slow down on the turn at all, expecting a call?

No, I jam the turn b/c we think we still have the best hand.

Do you ever even consider building a pot this size with bottom two pair?

I am comfortable building this size pot heads up with 2 pair on this board. Villian's range of holdings do not support us being beat until the river

Is check raising the flop a more viable play, hoping to take it down there..?

I think it's very close between leading out and c/r on the flop. I mentioned above that there is a good chance we get raised with a worse hand if we lead out here. Check raising will win a smaller pot but our hand is vunerable so maybe that is a good thing. I think with this board we can afford to build a big pot OOP.

Do you lead out the river if it gets checked behind on the turn?

Nope, I check fold this river because the pot is not nearly big enough now given the check check on the turn.

Do you lead out on the turn again? Or is the check/raise viable?


Both are viable to me. You might lose someone with a weak J (ie J10) if you lead. I like the check raise.


These are great exercises. Please keep them coming and I'm going to try and add more to this forum as I just moved up to $2 $4 NL on Party. Very little live experience as I live in Eastern Canada.

Here's another one..let me know..I still want responses..

For these purposes, players will be typical TAG.

2/4 NL

Relevant Stacks
UTG: 350
CO: 400
Small blind: 200
Hero: 550

Bottom two from the blinds..

Playing three pair out of position..

UTG, CO, Small Blind all call, we're in the big blind with 4 2 , Hero checks.

Pot: 16 dollars
Flop: 2 4 J

SB checks, Hero..?

Our play here is to go for a check/raise or to lead out and bet. I prefer, personally to check/raise. This can go sour though, very quickly. For our purposes, we'll lead out.

SB checks, Hero bets 15, UTG folds, CO calls, SB folds.

It's very unlikely the CO is on any kind of draw. It's likely a hand like QJ or KJ. He's a tight player that has shown down quality hands and uses his position effectively.

Pot: 46 Dollars
Turn: 9

Board: 2 4 J 9

Hero..?

This a relatively safe card. It's possible CO had 99, but unlikely. This being a safe card, I like to check/raise. I think this is our opportunity to lay the hammer down. Worst case scenario, river comes a Q or K, or, god forbid a J.

Hero checks, CO bets 25, Hero raises..? I think this where we bring the heat. There's 96 in the pot, I think we need to take it to 100, making him pay 75 more to catch. For our purposes, CO bets 25, Hero raises to 100, CO smooth calls 100.

It's very likely we have the best hand right now. CO wouldn't be playing J9, would've raised with Jacks, and is very unlikely to be holding 99. J4, J2, 24, and 92 are all out of the question.

Pot: 246
River; J
Final board: 2 4 J 9 J

Well, that couldn't have been a worse card. We're now beat by any J(which is a likely holding, KJ, QJ), any 9, and most any 4 and really any pocket pair.

There's actually $71 in the pot, not $96, after the CO bets $25. I think I like the $100 overbet of the pot, but would we gain any more or any less information by only betting the pot of say $75.

Just, FYI, the 96 is based on our, raising TO 100. Meaning, we've called his 25 already, and raised 75 more. We're betting 100 into a pot of 71.

I'm not real clear if that's what you're saying, or if you're saying we should've raised to 125?



I'm gonna wait for some more responses before I answer these myself.

I'm surprised at the lack of responses to this.

Given CO is a TAG, why would he only call with QJ or KJ instead of raising to protect his hand or gain information from you? This is something I'd expect from a more passive player (based on the fact I've seen no other hands with the CO.  Limping in pre-flop behind two others would either indicate, to me, high connectors (suited or not) or a low to mid pocket pair.  He doesn't like the Jack but maybe isn't giving you credit for it either, yet.

That is one of the worst cards for us.  Now we're OOP with a river that I'm sure counterfeits our original two pair.  The CO was not scared by our flop bet (or was only calling - mid pocket pair again? just seems more likely there).  Still came along for our check-raise (gives reason to believe at least holding a J with a mid kicker (10 Q K maybe).  All his actions to this point indicate he hit something or is holding something in his hold cards that he's not thrilled about but isn't scared to come along either.  

How much do we really beat here?  Our equity has dropped considerably (87% ish to 68%.  Against a LAG I may be coaxed into betting but how much?  $246 in the pot and my stack is at $431, the CO at $281.  I just can't see how we can bet (knowing the CO) and having him fold when he came this far.  To me, he has either two holdings - A jack or mid pocket pair.  So, either he's definitely not folding to any river bet holding a jack or he may be coerced into folding a mid pocket pair once that river jack hits.  A pot sized bet would commit a little over half your stack in a case where you're not sure you're ahead or not (and I don't thing you are).  

The CO hasn't shown any aggression, though, so perhaps a half-pot bet may induce a call or have him fold.  If it's reraised back I think it'll be for your whole stack and you may have to let it go..(ughhh...).  I think checking is just hand the hand to him, though, and what can you call with there?

I don't think most TAGs raise with QJ here, KJ, maybe if they lean to the side of loose.

Do you think being the Villain in this hand, you'd call the flop with say, 88 or 77? If you did, what would your play be on the turn and river? When the jack comes do you bet when checked to? Do you check behind?

I think that's the key. If he has a small pocket pair, he knows he isn't any farther behind than he was before the river. Essentially that the river didn't beat him. I think it makes his call with a small pocket pair (which beats us) easier on the river.

All we can really beat here is A high, and pocket 3s. That's it. Deuces are full, 4's are full, 5's beat us. Do you think a push could induce a hand like, 88 to fold? Or do you think we're too often called by Jx to make that worthwhile?

Can we make a play on the river? Honestly, is there anything that tells you we can bet at this river(and win)?

What if the turn is a Q and the river is a K? I think you no longer have the best hand against a lot of opponents.

The point of that question is, even if you DON'T get counterfeited, your hand will only rarely improve to a boat, and there aren't many combinations of decks that will come off on the turn and river to still give you a winner against a field.

I have a question for you though...

What if the turn is a Q and the river is a K? I think you no longer have the best hand against a lot of opponents.

I would lead out on the flop. If he raised me I would reraise. In other words I would try to get most of money in on the flop. Bottom two pair are strong on the flop but to many hands can beat you so I want to end the hand before the turn.

I don't even like the 9 on the turn since J9 is one of my fav to limp in late position in an unraised pot.

So how would you suggest he play it TJ?

I don't know that there is any value. Pocket fives have us thumped, and I think that that's about the only hand we can get to fold this river. Do you think we could move the villain off 88 or 77?

I like checkraising the flop better.

a) a free card DOES hurt our hand strength significantly, but the pot is smaller on the turn and easier to get away from.

We don't want to be multiway on the turn. Check/raising vs. betting can be the difference between heads up or multiway.

c) A check-raise plus a turn lead gets a lot of people off of top pair.

I don't think we want to take this hand to showdown, and we don't want to be building a pot OOP with this hand.

Quote:
b) We don't want to be multiway on the turn. Check/raising vs. betting can be the difference between heads up or multiway.


Do you think leading out the flop gets us heads up?

I agree, I think with this line we can get him to lay down top pair more often than not this way. What's our play on the river if he calls? Check/fold?

The turn is the only place that I don't like as much as the rest of the hand. A weak jack is likely to take a free card a lot of the time. Checking after leading the flop is intended to fein weakness and hope he tries to take the pot.

However, putting us in his shoes... How often are we going to raise this with a hand like qj? The BB can have any two cards and we can be walking str8 into a C/R. (I know this can be seen as hindsight, but I most times I go into "Get to showdown cheap mode" when the blinds bet and I don't have a strong enough hand to come at them. Therefore, I think you need to lead this pot again.

Do you ever even consider building a pot this size with bottom two pair?

Yes, with some one calling with top pair, I like building a pot here because it's the only way you're getting paid off with this hand. It just kinda sucks when it gets counterfeited like this.

Do you think we can take this down if he doesn't check behind? Is winning the pot by check/raising even a possibility in your mind?

I'm assuming you mean on the river. No. my read for the most part here is that he has a weak jack. on the river, I don't know if I really like the idea of trying to represent a stronger jack or a set. Correct me if that's not what you meant.


Does this hand change at all if limp on the button with these cards on the same board? Strictly from a positional stand point, that is.

Obviously position helps, but say, if it's checked to us on the river, in position, same cards, same board. Do we bet?

Hard to say because hand would probably play out different. If villain does have a j, Flop probably goes bet and u raise. probably called. then your bet on the turn probably takes it down.