Blinds: 200-400
Ante: 25
Stack Size: 14,000
Hand: A-9 off suit
Position: Cutoff seat (next to the button)

Everyone folds to you at a 9 handed table and you make it 1200 to go. The button folds, and the small blind goes all in for a total of 4000, 2800 more to you. You have minimal information as to your opponents tendencies, but you assume that he has a decent hand. Do you make the call, or do you move onto the next hand?

:wink: :arrow: 8)

Well Dan, I could be wrong but the ante's alone = $225 and with the blinds and your $1,200 bet it would be hard for me to lay down A9! Except for a super long shot you're up against pocket Aces, you can out draw any other pocket pair.You liked the A9 enough to bet the pot and considering your massive chip lead, I think I would call the All-In bet
and hope for a Ace or 2 pair with the 9.

Tell me why I'm wrong?

BBB

My answer is to fold.

The reasons why I would fold are:

a. (I'm going to pretend like I know pot odds here), there's 225 (in antes), your 1200, the BB's 400, and the SB's 4000. That's 5825 in Tchips. The amount of chips you need to put in is 2800, giving you about 2 to 1 on your money. Now, if you were to put the rest of the 2800 in with A-9, it's only a good call if you are absolutely sure that he has a pocket pair below your 9, or a weaker ace than yours, and since you're not sure of your opponents' holdings, it would be safer to fold and move on to the next hand, especially in tournament poker. If you think he has an ace with a higher kicker, the pot needs to have at least 3000 more in it to make it worth your call (3 to 1), and even then, you're gambling.

b. For a better read on your opponent's hand, you have to realize that the person that went all in was the small blind. The small blind, while shortstacked, isn't in that much of a hurry to put all of his chips into the pot, especially since he's the small blind, and is about to be button, he obviously thinks he's not gonna get a better hand than the one he has for seven to sixteen more hands or so. His posistion alone reveals that he's not messing around, and probably has at least A-J or a higher pocket pair. A-9o is just such a dominated hand by a lot of things against an all-in except 8's or lower and A- x<8.

c. Save your chips. 2800 chips with those blinds and antes are a lot. It's a better strategy to keep your money so you can get more out of the hands that you know you're the favorite, opposed to guessing and not really having a read on your opponent for 4/14 of your chips, opposed to folding and only giving up 1/14 of them.

Hopefully my answer is close to being right, since this is my first post on this forum, and first impressions go a long way. [/i]

accidently posted x2, don't know how to delete posts... :oops:

:wink: Thanks Dan,

My first thought was about the "Pot Odds" but I guess I felt somewhat "pot commited" and the Killer in me just wanted to knock this guy out!

However your path makes the most sense because anyone in the SB would have Big Slick or a nice pair to risk all their ammo!

You can buy anything but words of wisdom with Master Card...
Those my friend are "Priceless!"

Good luck on getting the "Poker Corner" show on Travel Channel! Or maybe the Game Channel,Fox Sports,Bravo or ESPN?

I expressed mailed a Media Kit to Barry Schulman and Jan Fisher at
Card Player and Steve Lipscomb and Mike Sexton at W.P.T. in West Hollywood. Hope it helps save the show!

Bill Fricke
Concept Designer
NationWide Media Inc.
williamfricke@yahoo.com

:oops: Sorry Adam, I thought you were Dan! Duh! But it did sound a lot like him...
I wonder what his answer will be? BBB

Blinds: 200-400
Ante: 25
Stack Size: 14,000
Hand: A-9 off suit
Position: Cutoff seat (next to the button)

Everyone folds to you at a 9 handed table and you make it 1200 to go. The button folds, and the small blind goes all in for a total of 4000, 2800 more to you. You have minimal information as to your opponents tendencies, but you assume that he has a decent hand. Do you make the call, or do you move onto the next hand?


With the information that was given I think the the correct move to do would be to fold. The reason I would have is that with 200/400 level blinds it seems to be in an earlier stage of the tournament because of the stack size provided. With an investment of 1200 chips into the assumed pot of 225(antes)+1200(your bet)+400(big blind)+4000(assuming small blind is included with all-in)=5625(hopefully). I would have to fold as you have minimal info. on the tendencies of your opponent and move on to the next hand because I would not be willing to risk an all-in from the small blind who may or may not have a descent hand :?: , and is trying to steal your bet because he could possibly think that is what you are doing.

I was wondering what was up. I don't think he'd post an answer three hours after he posted the question. :wink: Ooh.. I like these emoticons.

Question, if you knew it was me and not Daniel, would you have answered with such praise? lol.

I'd have to agree with adam... looks like at best we are a 3:1 dog with our opponent holding A-10 or better or 10-10 or better. Even if we are up against 8-8 or lower it's still 57-43 and we are risking 1/3 of our chips. :?

Our attempt to win the pot against little or no opposition has failed. It's time to fold and move on to the next hand.

Hmm.... well, the pot is laying about 2-to-1 here, but I'm not convinced I have the best hand. I'm probably out kicked if he has an ace and he may be suited as well. If it's a pocket pair I'm not too much of a dog to make this call, but if he has an ace I'm weary.

I'd still have 10k in chips if I make the call here, so this isn't too horrible either. This is really tough.... I'm really undecided and as such my first instinct is to fold. I would like to call and take down this pot though, but I'm going to fold.

This is my first post, so don't expect much wisdom here, but I think I agree with the general consensus. Although it wasn't explicitly stated in the question, it appears that we're in tourney format because of the blind/ante structure. If I'm reraised by that much from the SB, I'm going to assume that he has to have some sort of solid hand here to be reraising out of position. I took my shot at the pot with A9, it didn't work, I'm going to fold and keep my still large stack in relation to the blinds. I'm trying to work on my tourney play, and I'm pretty sure that I can find a better hand at this stage to commit >20% of my stack with. I'm probably wrong, but those are my $.02

I would fold, you are not really getting any good pot odds, maybe 2-1 to stretch it, but just wait for another time...the pot is not enough to warrant a call.

I would call. If you are not prepaired to call the SB then I wouldnt have raised in the first place. The small blind might think you are stealing the blinds. Also the SB doesnt have much chips left, so he could have had a mid to small pocket pair, a KQ,KJ,K10, or even an ace with a smaller kicker. The only way your in big trouble is if he has AA or a ace with a higher kicker. With that many chips I wouldnt fold in that situation.

I woul take the chance to take down that player and call

fold
-Travis

Fold. Your ace is dominated or he's got a pair which at best would be a race situation and you'd only have 3 aces to hit in the deck (assuming that you're 9 is no good because his pair is higher than 9). It also depends on how often I've been winning races. If I was on a rush like no other, then I'd call. Assuming I'm not because I only have 14,000 chips, my knee jerk reaction is, "You have A9... fold..."

If I put him on a pocket pair lower than 9's, I would consider calling. It's about a 2:1 call and from how I see it, if he's got an ace with a better kicker, then you only have 3x outs. If he's got a pair higher than 9, you've still... only got 3x outs. For me... I'd retire the A 9 and wait for another hand to break that player.

Theres a big concept in tournaments you all have to understand.
Except shit hands like 92, 58 etc your always at least 30% win-% in a heads up situation. This math make its O.K to CALL an ALLIN bet when you are BIGSTACKED and move ALL IN when you are SHORTSTACKED.
Just one requierment, the potodds must be 1:3.

In this case...
Pot: 5600 to call it would cost you 2800. The potodds for this must be equal to coinflip and in this case i belive not. Fold.

If his pair is 9s or better than you are getting horrible pot odds to make a call. You are at least a 3-1 dog against a pair that is not an underpair. I agree with your ultimate analysis that this is probably a reasonable fold, though.

I have to say fold here as well. Most people have already said why, with the pot odds, your stack size, etc. The one thing that I didn't think about until someone mentioned it above me is that since he is in the small blind, with a large table, he must think that he won't get a better chance to try and double up because he will have plenty of time to wait until the blinds get back to him. Even though the ante's would slowly eat into his short stack if he waited for the blinds to come back, it wouldn't put enough of a dent that he couldn't wait if he thought he'd get a better hand in that time.

I totally agree with this assessment, though there is one thing that is not entirely clear. It is not 100% clear that we are the big stack. Our relative chip position at the table might influence our decision on whether the call makes sense. If the other stacks at the table are big enough to push us around then a lot of our ante steal attempts might fail. They are probably going to be tempted to come over the top of us having seen us chuck this hand with 2:1 odds on a call. It might help our table image and prevent marginal hands from trying to bully us by showing down this hand. You are 60% to win against a random hand with A9. Against the average hand that someone might go all in with (a pair or an ace), according to a neat little table I found at twoplustwo, A9o is roughly 47% which means that the call might not be horrendous. Anyway, just something to think about.

I think this is an easy laydown. If I'm up against a pair, this doesn't seem to be a good position to race. I'm being asked to put in just under 30% of my stack on a hand where one of my cards may be dominated. IE: a pocket pair higher than 9 or an Ace with a better kicker.
At best I'm hoping to be up against A-x (lower than 9) or a couple of court cards. The former of which is not likely. I'd rather continue the game with $12,800 in chips and find a better situation to get my money in; especially if the big blind didn't fold (which was not mentioned).

Fold. Unless you have a good read most players in that situation would only go all-in with a bigger ace or a pair of tens or better. If he had either of those hands you'd be a 3-1 dog and the pot odds are 2-1. It's possible that he could have 88 or below but even then it's 50/50.


There's no need to jeopardize a bunch of chips here so that's an easy fold, the real question is what do you do if you had AJ or AQ.

:idea: I agree with wilderness that:

Luck is a horse you ride like any other but when it comes to this Hold Em'

Question I say 70% of luck is Labor Under Corect Knowlegeor L.U.C.K. !

Therefore I hereby eat crow and change my mind to FOLD!

Tank Ya...aah...Tank Ya very much. Elvis has left the forum for now!lol

Okay, I think there is one thing we all need to consider here...
He said A-9 Offsuit! That means that you can hit TWO FLUSHES!!! Even if the other guy has suited cards he can only catch ONE flush!

lol allright.. so I'm kidding But From what everyone else here has said, Not knowing much about the player... I say fold quite honestly.

Check out this advice from Dan Harrington's new book (you can read the whole excerpt @ http://www.twoplustwo.com/harrington-v1.html):

"Let’s look at the issues first. What should you take into consideration when you’re reraised?

1. Your hand. Did you come into the pot with solid values, or were you making a call or raise with a marginal hand for your position?
[This is clearly a case of the latter, so we put one point in the fold category.]

2. How many players were in the pot? A raise from a player facing only one opponent in the pot is usually less significant than one from a player who has already seen two or more players enter the pot. There are at least four different situations, which must be judged differently. (1) You call the blind. A raise behind you indicates some strength. (2) You raise. A reraise behind you indicates more strength. (3) There is a call in front of you, and then you raise. A reraise behind you indicates even more strength. (4) There is a raise in front of you, and you reraise. Now a reraise behind you represents a real powerhouse.
[This is case 2, representing a good amount of strength. 2 points for folding.]

3. How many players are yet to act? A reraise from the button or one of the blinds may just be an attempt to defend the blind or foil a steal. A reraise from a player in early or middle position, who faces the possibility of several players yet to act behind him, indicates more strength.
[This would generally point us in the direction of calling, but since the SB player went all in, we assume this is not an attempt to foil a steal. One more point for folding.]

4. Will you have position on the reraiser after the flop? If the reraiser is one of the blinds, you will act behind him after the flop. You can call with weaker hands than if the reraiser will act after you.
[Positional advantage eliminated. 4 points for folding.]

5. What are the pot odds? Be sure to calculate the pot odds before making your move. You should be much more willing to enter a pot with good odds rather than bad odds.
[The pot is laying us slightly better than 2:1. Not great, but not bad. If we think there's a 32% shot we have the best hand here, a call is correct. And as Sklansky readers know, even 32 off-suit is about a 33% shot against a random hand. However, we're not up against a random hand. We're up against an all-in hand. We'll mark this in the neutral column.]

6. How aggressive is the reraiser? A reraise from a conservative player has to be given somewhat more respect than a reraise from a player who plays many pots. But don’t press this analysis too far. Many aggressive and super-aggressive players like to steal unopened pots, but their reraises may be quite sound and normal. Until you have evidence that a player will try to reraise with minimal or weak hands, don’t be quick to assume that’s the case.
[Another point for folding.]

7. What’s the situation in the tournament? If it’s early in the tournament, and both you and the reraiser have plenty of chips in relation to the blinds and antes, you want to play more conservatively. You should be much less inclined to get involved in a situation that could knock you out of the tournament quickly. As your stack shrinks and the blinds pressure you more, your willingness to make a big move increases.
Those are a lot of issues to weigh. .."
[One last point for folding.]

So that's 6 points for folding and 1 point in the neutral column. Easy lay down.

It appears the vast majority are in favor of folding, so instead of jumping on the bandwagon, I'm gonna go out on a limb here and call.

Why would the SB go all in if he indeed have a monster hand? Wouldn't he flat call and hope the BB came along for the ride? I know it can be a bad move slow playing a huge hand, but when you're low on chips, sometimes it's worth the risk to try and triple up rather than double up.

That really would be the deciding factor for me. Just the fact that he pushed the big blind out of the pot would lead me to believe his hand is not as good as he wants us to believe. It's a clear defense of his blind thinking you were on a steal.

I don't think that you can make that call ... many reasons. If you feel he has a decent hand and wants to risk that much he most likely has a pocket pair. If that pocket pair is A-K-Q-J-10 then you're drawing for a A. With offsuit there's very little chance of catching a flush with the A since a flush with a 9 may not be good enough. And you have very little chance of catching four cards for a straight.

Anyone agree with me?

call it

Well I believe you have to call 4000 for an 8500+/- pot. So the pot odds are about 47%. This means that if your hand is a 47% favorite to win, then it is technically an even-money call heads up. So would you rather fold 1200 for nothing? Or call an even-money bet?

If your opponent has 8-8 or lower, then you are 47% or better to win. And if he has Ace-8 or lower, then you are in a dominating position. The hands you need to be worried about are AA, KK, QQ, JJ, 10 10, 99, AK, AQ, AJ, A10. This is 10 hands out of a possible 169 hands. This means that you are ahead of 158 hands, and behind 10 hands. Good odds for you, especially since the pot odds are 47% or so.

(Daniel didn't mention it, but I'm assuming the BB folded and you are heads up) Also, this is all assuming an average player w/ average chipstack and all that...

The answer is easy, Call.

You do have to let the cards fight for you once in a while!

I voted with the minority and called. 5825 in the pot. Getting a little more than 2 to 1 for the money. This is only a super bad call against AA. It's a marginally incorrect call against A with a better kicker and pairs KK thru 99. If I get lucky I can knock a player out of the tourney. Short stacks often get desperate and can easily be playing a small pair or even two randoms. I would be the money favorite or even the actual favorite on this hand.

I think that folding here should be easy. It is way to early to try and get involved with a marginal hand like A 9o. The pot odds are close to your favor but at best you are drawing to 3 aces. It is too much of your stack to call off so early.
Given the $$ in the pot and how much more it would be to call I think the blind would know you would almost be inclined to call and therefore WANT call. I dont think too many people would want to race with A9 so early.
Plus who wants to risk another 1/4 of their stack at this point.

Abs0lutely not with the stack size you have. With 5825 in the pot, you are getting roughly 2 to 1 on your money. There are 3 reaosnable hands you could be up against, assuming the player is not putting you on a steal. 1) A Bigger Ace 2) A pair above 9s 3) a Small pair. With options 1) and 2) you are are down 2.5 to 1. Its early in the torunament and the extra 2800 could be used to build your stack later. Let it go.

When there's 8500 in the pot and it's 4000 to call, his pot odds are about 2:1 That means he's going to have to win the very next time something like this happens. Hand odds are different than pot odds, If he has AK, you only have of about %25 to win. If he's got a pair higher than 9, you still have less than %30 to win.

I understand why everyone says they would fold, but my decision would be based on where I was in the tournament. If it was closer to the end, and I had a chance to knock someone out and I'm holding A9, then I'm in. I understand pot odds and the small blind re-raising appears scary, but towards the end of a tournament, I'd gamble and make the call, hoping he/she thought I was raising because of my position, not my cards.

I think you're wrong here, Farrell.

It would only be an even money call if your 4000 was already in the pot. Save your 2800, don't draw with A9o with the chance of bringing your opponent to around 8225 and yourself down to 10 000. You have a nice stack, let's keep it that way.

A,9 suited or unsuited is a hand i feel comfortable with. I've had it quite a few times in my games and have had pretty good luck. So i would say i would call him. If i win i would be chip leader and then take a deep breath and continue playing.

I don't know if I agree with your late-tourny move here, Hoosier.

In tournament play, it's not your objective to knock out players. What you want to do is gain as many units as you can. Keep your opponents in the game so they can keep feeding you units, keep some lower stacked players in to give the higher-stacked players more competition. And if you find this utterly opposite to your strategy, you have to agree that if you're in the late stages of a tourny with a decent stack, why risk a nice lead with A9o?

[quote="HoosierGrady"
I don't know if I agree with your late-tourny move here, Hoosier.

In tournament play, it's not your objective to knock out players. What you want to do is gain as many units as you can. Keep your opponents in the game so they can keep feeding you units, keep some lower stacked players in to give the higher-stacked players more competition. And if you find this utterly opposite to your strategy, you have to agree that if you're in the late stages of a tourny with a decent stack, why risk a nice lead with A9o?[/quote]

I dont know if I agree with your tourney play at all. Why would you want to keep a low stack in? They arent dead money, all you need is a chip and a chair. Keeping a low stack in when you can take them out is a cocky play.

I would call him, same reasons that other people have said.

Doubling up a short stack when you have bad odds to win and aren't getting pot odds isn't a good play at all. Of course you want to take the short stack out, but in this hand where you extremely likely to be behind isn't the the time to do it.

And for the person who said they'd call because they've had good luck with A-9 before? Come on, you can't play superstisiously (probably spelled that wrong) because it only hurts you in the end. You need to base your decision on this hand and this oppoenent and I think its a pretty obvious fold.

This statement flies against what was shown on ESPN. In the 2003 WSOP Moneymaker was knocking out players left and right. In the 2004 WSOP everytime the short stack said all-in, Raymer said, "I call."

To the poster who thought calling and losing would double up the small blind.
If you fold the chips are 12800 to 5825.
Call and lose: 10000 to 8625
Call and win: 18625 to ZERO.

It just seems unlikely the sb would only play AA-99 pairs and only AT or better kicker. If the sb plays lower pairs or lower kickers, the pot odds swing quickly in favor of calling.
Even if the sb only played the premium hands the tourney odds may favor calling. Winning this pot will put you in good position to win the tournament.

Why is it tempting?

1. Because of the image. If the other people at the table understand what the call means, they will understand that you are not afraid to gamble with them. If they think that, they won't fight back so much, and your implied odds are not as bad.

2. He is in the small blind. You have position. His call here is not a good one if he has anything under AK, in my book. He would have to flop a set if he holds a small pair to be really confident, unless he has a really good read on you. A weak ace obviously worries about missing the ace, and even if he hits it, you have position, and raised first. If he wants to play, he has to raise to win. You have an Ace, so he probably doesn't have AA, and if he has KK, he might want to see how the flop turns out. Then he could come out betting, and either get a call, or still win. Same for QQ. I would say his high pair chances have dropped. If he wants to raise, he has to make it difficult for you to call. Based on chips, A5 would seem like a holding that this all in bet would make sense for (bad english).

3. You are in the cutoff. Every one behind you is the blinds and the button, and everyone in front of you is... the blinds. If I was Negreanu, I would raise with 65 sooted in ep. This is the cutoff and the first one in, so I (Negreanu) could raise with hmmmm, 93. Being as I'm not Negreanu, I might still be capable of such a steal, since I might expect to win uncontested.

4. You don't know much about the sb. Therefore he doesn't (probably) know much about you. While this might imply he will play more conservatively against you, sometimes the best way to learn about someone is to make plays and see how they respond, and he might think that you would play much more conservatively against his reraise for the same reason (not knowing him). This goes to three or more levels of thinking, you get the idea. This one call can generate plenty of action in the future, and you are definitely not out of the race, should you lose.

5. Obviously, to learn a little about him. Of course, this only helps if he is definitely going to be playing at the same table as you for a while, and that goes for reason 1 as well.

If most of these are working in my favor, I would probably think that the call is warranted. The math alone screams fold, this reasoning (I think) screams call. Personally, I think call, but it is quite borderline.

well that's a strategy that's specific to whoever uses it...I think it's highly debatable and remains 'besides the point".


This is not the time or the place to race with A9o.

The only argument I hear for calling are incorrect pot odds, and that it'd put you in a good position if you knock the dude out...well obviously.

My move is fold.

(I also really liked that long, initial explanation made by whoever...well put)

By the way. Raymer's call's were based on what the other people would play that way based on his read of their play, then his probability that he would win based on what he put them on. Profitability, plain and simple. I didn't see Moneymaker's series, but figure it to be similar. Proof of Raymer's is that when Anderson shows AK, Raymer comments that he was surprised Anderson was so strong, because he figured Anderson would do that with any Ace. I heard that Moneymaker made some kind of similar claim as to what Dutch Boyd had when Moneymaker held a pair of 3s to knock him out, but the story I heard might have been skewed.

Also, ESPN shows all in hands. That's what they do. Do not make a decision in poker based on TV. We don't know the facts, just the actions.

I'm too tempted to think that he is just makng a move. All though I am usually not that stubborn, in this situation, I would make the call and see how the hand plays out. You're taking a chance at knocking another player out, and ultimately, it's a hand that you can easily rebound from if you don't get the best of it. You have to take chances in tournaments, and I would take a chance here. You're hande may easily be ahead anyway.

I look at it as the kind of hand/situation where most of the time, I fold, but there will be times I call, all things being equal. Sometimes you are in positions where you have to allow luck to happen when you're life isn't at stake. If I have no read to tell me what hand he has or how he plays, he's just as likely to be the ballys guy pushing back at me with 47os as he is to be in there with AK. It's just as likely his stack got short with bad play than it is bad luck.

I think the fact that so many people are pointing out all the reasons you should be folding in this situation says to me that he could know it and could be using it against me. I'd want to try to figure out what he thinks I have/how I'm playing. I think it feels like a weak play from a weak player because, as the first quiz played upon, he's giving up the ability to force me out of the pot after the flop.

In the end, I think it comes down to if I think it's a time and a place to gamble and what I could set up later with this move, win or lose or what I might risk later on if there's a player or two I feel might use similar tactics againt my raises.

Moneymaker was calling for low cards when he called Boyd's all in, indicating that he believed (correctly) that Boyd had unpaired high cards.

You have to call this raise.
Theres a few reasons why you MUST.

1) Assuming the BB Folds its a heads up coin flip
2) Small Blind is the most common place to raise to steal blinds and ante's
3) SB is short stacked and feels he can steal the blinds and ante's
4) Your getting almost 2:1 on your money and a chance to bust another player


Well its 5:20am here in Ajax so if that doesnt make sense PM me for clarification! I think it should be ok!

Make that call! SB probably has K,6 off or worse I am sure!

Take Care,
Tyler

When I read the two posts he/she responded to, I was gonna respond to them exactly like Wilderness said.

To KingAustin: Of course you don't want low stacks in, but you also don't want them to double up and be within two thousand of you. If they do double up, then calling would be a "****" play. (I don't know what the swear word is, so I just put the asteriks there myself. ) Folding is the optimal play here, and I stick to what I originally said all of the way back to post #3.

I see your point here, but say he has a hand like AK. It's not good letting 2 people draw at you rather than one. If the BB has a hand that's decent to call a stanard sized raise with, like QJ suited or other suited connecters, you're letting him draw at you by just calling. Where as if he suspects you have an ace he might have one that out kicks you leaving you with only 3 outs by pushing in and not letting someone else (the BB) draw at a better hand.

LIG.... Let it go. Is this really the hand that you want to lose 1/3 you chip stack on. Not me.

hasta luego