Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ Hero (6 max, 6 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

CO ($809)
Button ($1057)
SB ($1741.50)
Hero ($1694)
UTG ($645)
MP ($1047)

Preflop: Hero is BB with [Qc], [Qh]. SB posts a blind of $5.
UTG calls $10, MP raises to $40, UTG folds, MP calls $70.

Flop: ($235) [9s], [2h], [3s] (2 players)
Hero bets $150, Hero calls $150.

Turn: ($835) [Kh] (2 players)
Hero checks, MP checks.

River: ($835) [Js] (2 players)
Hero checks, MP checks.

Final Pot: $835

I've been getting nailed by sets quite a bit lately, so even though my initial read of the opponent was jacks or tens, (he doesn't raise a lot), and I was pretty sure he'd reraise kings or aces, I got scared that he hit nines or something and just called. Then, when he checks the turn, it's obvious that he doesn't have a set, but since I put him on jacks or tens to begin with, I have to check the river here.

Even though I usually abhor this play, I'm thinking I probably should have given a really small reraise on the flop, and try to squeeze blood from a rock when he's got the small overpair, and maybe even give myself a chance to get away if he reraises me all-in. (However, pot-committed for $560, I may have just called him down anyway.)

Anyway, thoughts? Did I play this too passively? I wasn't going to post results, but I pretty much gave away that he had tens, so I guess I'll just put that out in the open. How would the rest of you have played this differently, specifically on the flop. Was my play at least reasonable or was it just scared money throwing away value?

He has like 600 left so I think i'm putting him all in. The pots pretty big already and if hes pushing on the turn you're most likely stuck calling anyway.

By putting him all in you keep yourself from losing value if scare cards hit like this.

I get the sense he thinks you have AK. I'd reraise him all in on the flop. You gotta trust your read.

Do you really think he'd call an all-in on the flop with just tens though? He's not a rock, but he's a relatively tight player.

I mean I reraised him preflop, (which I hadn't done at the table yet in 20 mins. or so), I bet out on the flop, get raised, go all-in, and you think the worst overpair's going to call me? I think I might be able to "force" a call with a small reraise, but I really can't imagine that I'm getting called on an all-in there.

In fact, I think that's part of why I smooth-called in the first place, now that I look at it. I figured that as long as nothing scary came, I'd be getting the money in easier that way than I would with a reraise.

I think I'm happy taking the pot down right here. So that's why the all-in. I mean any significant rerarise is gonna pot commit him anyway.

Admittedly, I don't like Queens much after the flop (without flopping support), so I enjoy taking them down on the flop along with a nice 30% to 40% of a guy's stack.

I prefer making a standard pot sized reraise, if im going to. That means a raise closer to $150 total.

On the flop, you should not be underbetting the pot. Underbetting the pot may be acceptable if there were no flush draws and you had aces. Then you can be almost absolutely certain that the villain is drawing to two cards or less, and you want to encourage action. You're too vulnerable here.

When he min raises you, why would you just call? Do you plan on folding the turn, or are you planning on bumping him on a non-scare card turn?

The problem is that there are probably a lot of scare cards for him unless he has you slaughtered with a set.

You're also failing to protect your hand.

Well, I wasn't really worried about being drawn out on here. I was almost certain that he had either an underpair (to my queens, not the board) or a set. I'm

However, as for what I "planned" to do on the turn, the problem was that I was on the "no plan" plan. I realize it was way too passive of a play, but it just seems like there's got to be a better play than moving in there.

All moving in does is kill my action when I have my opponent drawing to two outs, and put all my chips in the center when I'm behind. I really think that the best play might just be to make a "fishy" raise for say another $200 to $500. Sure, my opponent will probably recognize they're behind, but I don't think many players (that I've seen anyway) will fold their overpair when they only have to call another $200 into a $1000 pot.

I guess if I was really worried about A-K or even A-9, I might want to make a stronger move at the pot, but I was almost completely convinced that he either had J-J, 10-10, or a set.

Why are you so sure of that?

Who's to say that AK doesnt play it exactly like this preflop? Or AQs? There are a variety of hands that could have picked up a flush draw, and have overcards.

Haven't read replies...

"The key to no limit is to put a man to a decision for all his chips."

He just did it on the flop.

Decide now. Deer in headlights, don't blink. "Blinking" would be "calling and checking." Now you can't call an all in, and you might be ahead still if he moves you in on the turn.

In a related story, you need to bet pot or more, not less, on this flop to keep this from happening.

For argument's sake, I'd assume I was ahead on the flop and I don't have a problem moving in over the raise.

Also for argument's sake, I think for his raise preflop, we can rule out A9 and figure TT or JJ, or possibly two broadway spades. We have fold equity for the re-raise. Use it.

I think there's something to be said about reminraising.


You minraise me? Ill minraise you, bitch!

Maybe a little bit passive on the flop. It would seem after you reraised him preflop, mostly all players would reraise with AA there, KK might just call in fear, but most players will a big bankroll would just reraise , and "if he has Aces, he has Aces." When you bet out on the flop it was a really safe board, so when he raised there I would lean towards making a final decision about the hand. All in on fold, I dont think you could get away from hand after just calling unless the turn was an Ace or something. It wasn't a bad play though , if you have been getting beat down all day. Sometimes every hand is scary on some nights, people just always seem to have you crushed. Bad Nights, QQ, and getting reraised is a very stressful situation. The turn was one of the worst cards in the deck, and its a good thing he didn't put you a gigantic decision.

No. Bad.

He can't fold for a re-min-raise. If he moves in we can't fold. The only hands that move in over a re-min-raise have us destroyed or are drawing waaaaay live at absolute best.

And the moral of the story is...

Min-raises suck almost all the time. Don't do it.

Yeah Min-reraises are some of the worst plays made on a consistently basis. They give you almost no information about where you stand in the hand and no player that bets there draw is going to fold when they get one-overed. Do yourself a favor, if you are getting in bad situations consistently using this play, make a real bet and find out exactly where you stand. Good quote TJ

I agree that minraises are bad, and i was half joking.

But honestly, that's not a reason why it's bad here.

If he has something that he's going to go over the top with, it makes no difference if we push or if we minraise and call a push.

If you're saying htat we ought to push, then information should be of no concern. You're already commiting your entire stack to it, and all hands that have us crushed are calling in a split second.

The reason why minraising here is bad is because we're failing to protect our hand in the event that he has overcards.


If you knew that he had 10's or J's, would you not want to price him into a call? He's not getting odds to draw to two cards. The only reason he's going to call is because he thinks that there's some possibility that he's ahead.

You definitely want to get more value out of him if he has an underpair.

Sure you have reverse implied odds, but so does he if he misses. He's not folding if the turn is an apparent blank after calling that much - the pot is massive.

I see what you're saying, I really do... but I think for that to be a good play you'd have to be disproportionally right about TT or JJ.

And if I think about that too much, I'll just think myself in crazier and crazier circles, and eventually conclude that min-raises still suck, lol.

That's me, thinking smarter not harder.

If he has kings up or a set, it doesnt matter what you do.

It's when he either has a live draw, or is dominated that your play matters.

Making a small raise is good against hands that you dominate. (debatably)
Making a big raise is good against hands that contain live draws. (without question)


Making a small raise is a bigger mistake against overcards than making a big raise is a mistake against underpairs.


If he's drawing _really_ slim, at least give him a chance to make a mistake. Going all in makes sure that you're almost only going to be called by hands that have you beat.

If you look at it, there are only two reasonable combinations for a live draw. A-K and A-Q of spades. Meanwhile, there are 12 possible combinations of JJ and 10-10. When you further add in that I don't think his play is consistent with the suited overcards, (I think he'd either make a larger raise or just call), I think that you can almost neglect that possibility altogether. At any rate, the 12 times you gain value against the underpair will negate the times that you lose value by not raising harder against a draw. In fact, given that the draw has 12 to 15 live outs, it really doesn't matter how much we raise, because villain's going to have to call in a virtual coinflip anyway.

My smooth-call was undoubtedly wrong, but I think a small raise is better than a large one here against a relatively tight mediocre player.

I think the min-raise, or something slightly exceeding that (e.g. 150 to 400) can work when the amount is substantial enough, that has been been my experience. It's very easy to talk pot odds, so forth, but when you move a couple more stacks into the center, the guy takes notice. Granted, I do understand that if the guy calls, what do you do next? So certainly my own predilection isn't without pitfalls. In general, I think there's way too much abject recommendation of pushing. I think similar results can be achieved without risking everything in front of you. Chris Ferguson has spoken on this at length, the game theory implications of making raises just big enough to achieve the desired result. Basically it comes down to risk management. Maybe I just sound scared or passive, but I think the all-in is wielded as a blunt instrument, and there's not enough delicate slicing going on. Or maybe I'm being lame and metaphorical here. To me, pushing in marginal spots sounds like tourney play. Meanwhile, others say in cash games, they'd risk it all because they can simply reload. I view it differently: I don't mind risking play money, i.e. tourney chips, but when I've accrued a nice stack with a good session, I don't see the sense in pushing without a real edge. I think what's deemed 'passive' play evens out in the long run, in the sense that the instances wherein you could've maximized profit weigh out against instances wherein you overplayed a hand. [/i]

Well, on the turn I can't see the king helping him. And if he did have his set of 9s, you'd think he'd push here with all the potential draws on the board.

At this point, I'm trying to show weakness. So I bet something like $200. If he folds, well, I wasn't getting anything anyways. If he reraises, I can now push all in (and then they can show me AK FTW). And if he calls I'm getting value on the bet.

The river you have to check.

When you gay-raise the flop, and check the turn, I think you have a pretty easy river value bet.

I usually make it 400 straight on the flop. I might even check the turn and try to induce a river bluff.

But I find it hard to really find fault with the way you played this hand.

The flop MinimmRaise is kinda silly, but you know that. It's very difficut to bet this turn OP, and the river sucks too.

I haven't read replies yet, but I'll be pretty surprised if you get a lot of shit for the way you played this hand. Sometimes you get frozen.

Ice

king fell on the turn, flush got there on the river

you played this one fine, he probably has TT or an underpair