Party Poker 0.50/1 Hold'em (10 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with 2:heart:, A:heart:.
UTG calls, Hero calls, 1 fold, CO calls, Button calls, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: (7 SB) Q:diamond:, A:club:, 7:club: (7 players)
SB checks, BB checks, UTG checks, Hero bets, MP1 calls, CO folds, Button folds, SB calls, BB folds, UTG calls.

Turn: (5.50 BB) 5:spade: (4 players)
SB checks, UTG checks, Hero bets, SB folds, UTG calls, Hero folds.

River: (10.50 BB) J:spade: (2 players)
UTG checks, MP1 bets, UTG calls.

Final Pot: 12.50 BB

Ok, I know the flop call was loose, but this table had been pretty loose passive, with the exception of the one hand that I posted a few minutes ago, so I figured I could get in cheap, with lots of limpers.

Now, I have to know I'm beat on this turn right? Easy fold? Drawing dead even to a better Ax two pair?

I'm only really posting this hand because of the results, and I know not to be results oriented, so that is why I'm seeing if this was a reasonable play.

Thanks.

Zach

I probably don't even bet the turn.

I'm not sure if I have a rule..but intuitively, if I don't have enough outs to call a bet/raise and I have 3 opponents left after betting the flop, I'm often times saving that bet.

maybe, I'm just talking outta my ass...but it's something like that.

Def fold. I'm with actuary as in I dont bet the turn here. You're up against a stronger ace just about every time here.

Ok good. Just making sure I wasn't going crazy. The raiser turned up... J10 offsuit... for no pair, gutshot draw when he raised, and the one who called down showed 56 off for bottom pair. The raiser ended up making his hand on the river. Of course, I would have won if I stayed in, but I'm relieved to know it was a good fold :-) And, I'm relieved to know that my opponents suck so much. Like calling with a gutshot there, and calling with undercards?? And then two cold when you hit your bottom pair... lol

Zach

:shock:

Why are you guys saying he shouldn't bet this turn?

Bet the turn, fold to a raise.

I expect to have the best hand on this turn A LOT.

I don't at .5/1 full, with 3 others calling a flop bet and an Ace on Board. Any other top pair I probably lead. I can't defend this vehemently, and often I do bet it... but often I give up too when it's 4 way and I have no re-draws and likley insufficinet fold equity.

What about pp's, flush draw's Qx and 7x hands. Even if we are behind, we have a lot of outs to catch up.

You know 4 calls doesn't mean someone has an ace.

I agree with Actuary, at .50/1 people limp with any ace and when they hit it they aren't letting it go. I might not even fight for this pot on the flop. And if I do bet the flop and get called by 3 people I definately check/fold on the turn.

Wow. I cant understand not betting the turn.

You give these players way too much credit.

Are you really check/folding the turn/river? With no one showing any sign of aggression? Or are you praying that it will be checked down?

That's terrible.

You're second last to act and have been given no reason to believe that you're behind anyone.

Almost any ace that doesnt raise that flop you have MANY outs to chop against, or he may already have a kicker that won't play.

If you want to show this hand down, which i dont see why you WOULDNT want to, betting the turn is the best option.

You have top pair. No one has bet. The board isnt particularly coordinated. What are you scared of?



Folding to a raise is probably for the best.

I agree with Actuary, at .50/1 people limp with any ace and when they hit it they aren't letting it go.

This is true for many limits. We're not betting to try and get someone to fold a better ace. We're betting to protect our hand, and for value.

I might not even fight for this pot on the flop. And if I do bet the flop and get called by 3 people I definately check/fold on the turn.

That's insane. You're folding a lot of winners.

you are almost always behind.
pot is small.

7 players saw the flop.

who wants to put in 2 BB's to chop 7-9BB's, as best case.

I just think you can find much better edges than this. Is TPBK really worth betting in a 4 way pot? If this is my biggest leak I can live with that.

7 people saw the flop. There are 7 small bets in there. That isn't so small.

If i was to look at it before anyone had acted, i'd say that im probably behind. Look at the information that you've got from how the hand played out!

The fact that half the field checked to you gives you reason to believe that there's a good chance that you're ahead.

The fact that no one raised you on the flop gives you MORE reason to believe that you arent behind.

3 people call, and everyone checks to you _again_!

How much confirmation do you need?

I realize that it's not a lock - there's a very real chance that you're behind. But not THAT often.

Since when does getting called at a microlimit table require that they have top pair beat?

How often do you think that you're ahead based on that information?
How often do you _need_ to be ahead to make sticking around in this pot profitable?

Not to mention that you get value when you're ahead.

Hero is second last to act, and stands a good chance of having the best hand, given the complete lack of aggression on the flop and turn ahead of him. Considering that people call down with bottom pair at these limits and that you will likely be raised by a better Ace, that turn bet/fold seems like the best line. Not betting in that spot seems weak.

Bet/call might even be ok. I haven't worked out the exact odds, but you have a bunch of outs to split with AJ-A8, if that is what villian is raising with (getting 10-1 back at ya after the turn raise). Even with the dirty clubs. AK and AQ seem pretty unlikely, given the lack of action preflop. It's close, though (and probably -EV).

weak aces are not raising or leading or folding for one bet.

we are behind to often imo.
Maybe if I cared to work out the odds of splitting, I could see a bet...but..nah.

edit: it's a small-mid pot if we win/split. If it gets big; we're not winning it.

Ok. This is true. But neither are weaker hands.

And almost all weak aces will end up splitting this pot with us.



I hate this way of thinking. Sure there are bigger edges to be found in poker, but that doesn't mean you should shy away from marginally profitable situations. I don't even think this situation is all that marginal to begin with.

For those advocating we give up here. How would you play it if you had KQ?

And how can you guys be so certain we are behind. No one else has shown any strength whatsoever. Why do we suddenly think TP is such a weak holding??

TPnK against 6 others who saw the flop and 3 that called a bet at .5/1 .

We may not get any where on this one!

After reading replies, I have to say that bet/fold turn is probably the best play. I looked at my line, and I liked it. I still can't believe the guy raised with his gutshot draw on that turn. He bought himself 6 more outs there, although I'm certain he didn't know it. It was a very bizarre hand by both villans.

Oh well.

Thanks for the feedback.

Zach

Because 7 people were in on the flop, what are the chances someone doesn't have an ace?

Are you suggesitng that party players at the micro limits are tight post flop?

Holy crap, man.

This isn't marginal at all... and even if it was, that's no excuse to avoid it.


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There are 2 aces left in the deck.

No one has bet the flop, turn or raised preflop. Strong aces are unlikely. Weak aces, we're going to be chopping with most of the time.

The pot is 6 big bets by the turn, and we get called by worse hands all day long.

Check behind on the river... fine. No problems there.

Not until you realize you're wrong.

And it's not even close.

looks like there is a 45% chance of another Ace out.
But that's classic probability, not Bayesian.

Yes they are loose; but Aces are kept by everyone and usually you have fold equity with one on board. Given 3 callers on flop, I don't like our chances.

:? I guess I need to start playing at party more.

And you still maintain that you dont want to bet?

So what do you do? Check/fold when you've got a winner roughly half the time, for 1 bet into a pot of 6?

I c/c.

Are you hoping to pick up a bluff here?

You just give all hands that are behind a chance to catch up for free and value bet you on the river. Against the hands that are already ahead of you, you're basically going to lose the same.

Im not suggesting that you bet the river. For that, you can check/call.

damn.
Ok.

I avoid folding to raises that I split the pot with.

AA, AQ, QQ, 77, 55 - drawing dead.
AK - 3 outs to win.
A7 - 3 outs to split.
A5 - 6 outs to split.
AJ-A8 - 6 outs to split, 3 to win.
A6, A4, A3 - 10 outs to split, 3 to win.
Q7, Q5, 75 - 8 outs to win.

We are ahead of every other hand, although most have 5+ outs to beat us. I'm not eager to c/f the turn facing no aggression. Even against AJ-A8, we have 5-6 discounted outs (depending on clubs). I'm actually leaning towards bet/call, now (thanks to the UTG cold-call giving 10.5-1 closing the turn action). If you don't plan to call the river if the board doesn't pair and you miss your deuce, your immediate odds to call the raise on the turn aren't that bad. Especially if you eliminate AA, QQ, AQ, and AK from the holdings (and on the flipside Q7, Q5).

Even though you will likely have to pay 1 BB on the river if you plan to call down any card, even that's a close decision (getting 6.25-1 pot + implied odds on the two bets). This is no longer a small pot.

While there may be theoritically a 45% chance another ace is out, it reality it's much less. This is because another ace will typically bet/raise the flop.

When the turn comes a blank, and 2 players check, the likelyhood of an ace goes way down.

You say you want to c/c so you avoid folding to raises with hands your splitting the pot with. But why would a splitting hand all of a sudden wake up and raise the turn? Don't you think they would have bet/raised the flop??

There's only one player behind you on the turn. If you check, the turn likely gets checked through, and you miss out on a lot of value.

wow..this must really be frustrating to the "Bet" crowd!
Kinda like when someone wants to fold in a 27 BB pot with middle pair and missed draws all over the place.

Whiel the Bet crowd insists that opponets are loose and will call down with much worse hands, I contendyou are not giving them credit for being as passive as they are. Many Aces and two pairs even do not bet or raise.

45% is actually low considering the action, not high.

This is all the more reason to bet.



That doesn't make sense. 45% is the number based on card frequencies.

If they are apt to play many aces and two pair this way, they probably play bottom pair, gutshots, and maybe even hands like K6 to try and get lucky. We are ahead of far more hands than we are behind to. Also, will occassionally bet/raise hands that are better than ours.

It could be higher than 45% and it would still be a bet.

given 3 players at least called the flop, the 45% is a low figure. Not betting or raising indicates we are in a passive game, not that they don't have a better Ace.

I win this hand at 6 max; but not at Full often enuf to bet.

I get the feeling I'm wrong.

It can mean both.