Lucky Chances in Colma, Calif. Blind structure $2 (on the button), $3 and $5, $10-to-open, $500 maximum buy-in, nine-handed. This hand is about ten minutes after I've been moved to the main game after spending the better part of the evening in the forced-move game. About half the other players at the table had been in the forced-move game with me at some point. I'm in seat 4. In seat 7 is Freddie, an experienced, crafty player whom I've known for years, since the days when Walt Z. ruled the roost in the $1-$2-$2 game at Artichoke Joes.

I've got about $1800 in my stack, one of the larger at the table (average is roughly $1K).

In this hand Freddie is on the button and I'm in middle position. UTG opens for $10 (the minimum). Seats 2 and 3 fold. I squeeze my cards and see T T , and raise to $40 straight. Seats 5, 6, and Freddie in 7 cold-call the raise, the blinds drop out, and UTG calls. The pot contains $168.

The dealer burns and turns 8:spade: 6:club: 3:spade:. UTG checks to me. I've got an overpair to the board that has both straight and flush potential. (I have a backdoor ten-high flush draw). It's a mult-way pot, and the players after me can have just about anything remotely playable.

I decide that the pot is big enough and I should price the draws out of the hand. I bet $200.

To my surprise, both of the two players after me call this bet. Freddie puts in a raise of $300, making it $500 straight.

UTG folds, and the action is on me. My best guess is that everyone but me is drawing. I ask Freddie how deep he is. He has about $900 left in his stack, which my $1500+ covers comfortably.. "Okay, then, let's dance," I say, and move the rest of my stack forward.

I think this is a jam-or-fold situation. Just calling Freddie's raise is asking for overcallers -- because if I'm right and they are drawing they are now getting the right price to call. But is a medium-strength overpair worth jamming with in this spot?

No its not, because you are either dominated, or racing your entire stack if he calls.
and with 2 players stil to act behind you, u have no real idea of what they are capable of calling your push with.


But i'd probably respect this raise, and not risk it

This doesn't make much sense to me...

"Racing" your entire stack with that much money in the pot is an awesome situation to be in. This pot is huge. There's, what, a little over 1K in the pot when the action's on you?

Onto the hand:



You know you can't call here, ever, because

a) you have zero visibility
b) you're letting homeboys draw

If even one of the players behind you calls, you're dodging a huge chunk of the deck IF you're ahead.

Freddie's raise here doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me, unless he has a big draw, like AsJs, or 4s5s, or As6s, something like that. You said he's an experienced player, so this bet with a set or an overpair (to your tens) seems a little odd. He KNOWS he's getting called, and getting called correctly, by at LEAST one player, often 2.

But if he has a hand like 4s5s, wouldn't he be worried about being in rough shape to one of the cold-callers, with a better flush draw?

I'm not much of a NL player, but I don't think I'm making this small raise unless:

1) I'm trying to get maximum value from a baller draw, with the option of taking a free turn

2) I'm way ahead with a set, and I know the opener well enough that he'll push and price my opponents off their draws, while at the same time giving me maximum action.

(shrug)

Like I said, my NL game is weak. I would have folded in this spot, but a push is much better than a call.

Ice

EDIT: Oh, the size of the cold-calling players' stacks is important, too

"Racing" your entire stack with that much money in the pot is an awesome situation to be in. This pot is huge. There's, what, a little over 1K in the pot when the action's on you?


good post.

:roll: :roll:


The hands we are ahead of are TPTK, 99 or some draw.

even if freddie is making the raise with two suited over cards, we are ahead but drawing slim if any of his outs hit.

come to think of it, I'm not even all that fond on the smal raise from Middle position.

I'd limp here 9 handed with 10,10 in MP

edit:
Just to take it further cuz i'm going to bed

Hero made a over pot sized bet, is he showing weakness with this?, whats freddie thinking?

well if he is as good a player as Alan says he is, then we can imagine freddie thinks A-, this is a weak steal, and he can push u off ith a large raise.

or B- he thinks his hand is good, ie: called ur raise from MP with JJ or QQ

or C- he is semi bluffing knowing you have only two option. you either fold or push.

he is probably opting for the fold, but would be willing to call your all in if so.

with both large stacks at the table and blinds being as low as they are for the stacks these two have, My gut tells me freddie isnt stupid enough to attempt a bold pot steal here
I vote: he's drawing with 2 suited over cards

I don't get it... why are you rolling your eyes at me?

I was being serious, and I think my point is a good one. You'd be a maniac to turn down a coinflip for the rest of your chips with all that money in the middle.

What was your point??

Ice

I think this is a fairly straightforward all in. You're looking at a player value raising a draw into a big field here most of the time. If he has something like a set hes looking to take down what is already a huge pot with an all in not keep all the draws in for cheap.

Like ice said with that much $ in the pot this is a great spot to race since thats almost always what its going to be here.

Also from reading earlier, hows this a small raise here? The blinds are 2 3 5, sure you have to open for 10$ but 40$ is a plenty big raise if you're looking to get rid of the blinds and cut this field down.

If he has a set, I'm drawing to two tens, making me something like an 11:1 dog. But that's not a bet to protect a set in that spot -- He has to worry about the callers after me, every bit as much as I do.

His raise looks to me, in the light of day, like he's making a play for the pot: he's making big enough bet to look serious to the rubes (who often think in terms of hundreds of dollars rather than fractions of the pot) but not enough to commit his whole stack if I play back at him.



It wasn't a small raise; it was a pot-sized raise ($20 in the pot + 2x a $10 call) -- pretty much a shot across the bows, telling the other players that if they mix it up with me, there's going to be a real pot. Big-bet poker pots grow exponentially, not linearly, until they max out stack sizes.

And I'd much rather play a hand like TT in a raised pot. In a $10-to-go game with $1K stacks, you're getting 100:1 in implied odds if you can flop a monster hand. Raising cuts the implied odds down, forcing aware players to dump their bad hands. Even with flops that have overcards in them, a continuation bet can often take the pot down.

The players in seats 5 and 6, who started with stacks of about $1K each, folded to my all-in reraise.

Freddy paused for a long time to consider his situation, then mucked his hand. I took down a $1268 pot.

About the only hands I can put him on that make any sense would be either A8 in some other suit or a straight draw in some other suit. with $800 to call to win a $2400 pot, he's certainly getting the right price to call with any flush draw, once the other players are gone, and he's very close to 50:50 with the big flush draws like AsJs or As6s.

In general I hate the situation of having an overpair to a drawing flop. I feel I have to bet my hand hard to protect it, and at the same time I have to worry about stronger hands. If someone bets into me, am I facing TPTK, the nut flush draw, a better pair than mine, or a set? I stand to win a reasonable-sized pot, and I stand a good chance of losing all my chips.

so what exactly was the point of this thread?

I make these same results with 2,7 off

why are we debating this? freddie put you on a over Pair and was forced to muck.

His raise looks to me, in the light of day, like he's making a play for the pot: he's making big enough bet to look serious to the rubes (who often think in terms of hundreds of dollars rather than fractions of the pot) but not enough to commit his whole stack if I play back at him


well if you want good feedback you have to tell us the whole story.

You should have gave us proper info on freddie, he doesnt seem like a smart NL player if you (MP) bet out more than the pot, and had 2 callers behind you.

making it a very juicy pot, with seats 5,6 still in it, possibly pot committed, since you said its a max 500 buy in.

it sounds to me like u played very poor players, and knew what u were doing, thus making this a waste of time

I don't think is a waste of time at all. I think it clearly illustrates how to push perceived edges and dominate a NL cash game by being aggressive.

I bet the rest of your session went well Alan.

nice post

is it just me who realises seats 5 and 6 are still in this hand with lower chips stacks then hero and freddie?

like i said before, 10,10 looks pretty crap here, and we didnt get nearly enough info from the OP to make a push here with 2 players left to act, plus freddie behind us as a smart and +EV play.

By all means you can opt to push and take down a pot, or get called a face a race.

Only way i can justify a push is from the knowledge i have on this table and these players.

which is almost nothing as of now, except that freddie is decent and has been playing a while.

I don't agree that 10/10 looks like 'crap' here. In B&M play, several cold callers of $40 sounds like broadway cards, maybe a suited ace, maybe a K/Q suited, maybe even a smaller suited connector. If someone just cold calls preflop with a pocket pair better than our tens, what can we do? In fact, maybe a guy who cold calls with jacks doesn't like them so much against the initial raiser when forced to decide for all his money. And if we're up against a set, so it goes. They happen. I'm pretty conservative myself, but I don't see simply calling that raise either, especially as you note that the other players have loose hand requirements. You made the right move. Nice hand.

so B&M's allow for completely different styles of play? Are we supposed to assume these players are donks due to the fact that its at a B&M?

also, no one has even questioned calling, its simply push or fold.

nope, I wasn't implying 'donkishness' necessarily, just sort of the betting/calling patterns I've noticed in live play. I should amend my statement, I don't really play online, so I was just making specific my reference.

No one has considered calling because it is by far the worst option. Practically every card that comes on 4th will hurt you and if you face another big bet from villian you will still have no clue as to where you are in the hand and now the pot is huge.

It's a pretty clear raise or fold decision.

uhh?/ ok. thanks?

Sorry Royal, I must have misunderstood. I thought you were wondering why no one was advocating just calling.

no worries,

I meant we only had 2 options cuz calling is in no way a choice

interesting hand though, and some good debates

Why were you being such a dick in this thread?

because i'm getting screwed at the table in the last 48 hours, and i havent slept well and my car needs a new alternator.

thats pretty much the reasons.

sorry ice, i love you

Drink a fifth