PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $2 BB (7 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

CO ($256.10)
Hero ($196.50)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with J:diamond:, J:club:.
Hero raises to $8.

Flop: ($19) A:club:, 6:diamond:, 4:diamond: (2 players)
Hero bets $14, CO calls $14.

Turn: ($47) 5:heart: (2 players)
Hero bets $24, CO calls $24.


Thoughts on the bet sizes to this point?

This guy obviously has an ace, and not much else,
since he has been so passive.

What's our move on an unimproved river?

Looks fine so far

Mix it up, bluff the river half the time. The rest of the time c/f.

It just goes by feel at this point

i think this type of hand is when you should really either look at ur notes on this player or remember how he has been playing...can he lay down top piar? will he call down with middle pair? would he play a draw this way? and then decide accordingly, but if this is say this first hand u played then i put him on AJ or AT and check fold

I don't have notes on anybody at stars yet,
just started playing there yesterday after making
the deposit for the forum tourney.

I'd prefer bet/folding 20 on the flop.

Check/fold the turn.

Position... sometimes you just can't do anything about it. I think the turn bet is significantly bad though.

People hate letting go of aces. I think you played this a little bit too aggressive already with jacks, and I think that you're just going to have to check-fold the river.

This is the kind of situation where I like just going into check-call mode. You'd be putting in about the same amount of money when you're behind, and when you're ahead, you have really good bluff-catching potential. I'd probably check-call the flop, then check the turn and reevaluate, trying to determine if he actually has the ace from the betting pattern. If you don't like that tack, then bet out on the flop and check-fold the turn.

However, that bet on the turn is just hemmorhaging money. The only hand you might get to fold is to QQ, and you're showdown value's pretty much nil unless you hit your two-outer.

yeah, the reason you make money is they won't fold A-6

IMO, check calling the flop after we raised PF, you might as
well just wave a white flag and tell him we don't have an ace.

The flop bet, I think was standard. If he calls, you can figure he's
got either an ace, or a pair bigger than ours.


The turn bet I am not so sure about....

This depends on a lot, but there are a lot of good reasons to bet on the turn. If I was CO and felt like you were overly agressive, I'd consider the possibility that you might have an underpair and look for a reason to call the flop. Possible good ones might be a flush draw or any pocket pair. Figuring I have outs on the turn, and there's a chance you might not have the A and will check to me, and allow me to steal regardless of my holdings. Depending on what I thought of your play, I'd actually make this call with nothing at all assuming I would steal the pot from you on the turn.

But considering you fired again at the pot and were called, obviously this would be a good time to cut your losses.

Mark

I'm not a fan of this lead out raise UTG with JJ, either limp or raise slightly more.
With only a 4x BB bet, u leave the possibilty open for any PP or Ax suietd to call this and look for a nice flop

That was exactly my line of thought going to the river.

The river, however, was the J .

What's our play there??

My thoughts:

If he has AK: Ideally you check, he bets, and you raise and get called. If you bet, he could just call there, worried about AJ
If he has a weaker ace: You check, he checks behind you, or you bet and he calls
If he happened to flop trips: Your best option is to bet and get raised
And by this time, you can't put him on a flush draw, so no use trying to induce a bluff from someone with that hand.

So I feel like a good sized bet on the river that can be called by AT is appropriate?

Course, with the way you played the hand, I'd put you on a big A and let it get to the river without fear of the flush if I flopped trip As

Mark

I think you see that a lot from utg, the slightly larger than normal raise, with big pairs that are vulnerable like TT or JJ. I don't like it for that reason.

Mark

where are u playing and "how do you see this"

i'd love to know how you claim people are leading out big from UTG with 10,10 and JJ.. i have yet to see it as a comon play.

come to think of it, you should start limping with aces on the button then too cuz people tend to raise the button for steals, but a limp will look like the opposite. :roll: :roll: :roll:

Check the river? wtf are u talkin about, we hit our set, we didnt bet this whole way to stop now when our card comes.
U bet this river with this card. plain and simple

I've seen the odd behavior at the low-limit NL tables at Pokerroom. If someone raises 6xbb or 8xbb, often times it means they have 10s and Js. It's odd behavior. So I try to put it in my notes whenever someone uses that pattern.

Continue to bet like your bluffing and scoop a nice pot. 1/2 the pot. $45 or $50 bucks.

Then why the hell are you continuing with your betting out of position on the turn?

Short of a jack on the turn, the hand is dead to me after the flop bet doesn't work. And frankly, I don't think it is wise to play so aggressive out of position.

But, looks like it worked out for you. Since no one has a read on you either. I like to push all-in (or about the pot and 1/2) on the river.

Why? Because if you get called - you're going to broadcast your donkeyness for the table and make them remember what you did.

If they fold (which is more likely) you preserve your table image.

but, that's me. if you just want to maximize your pot (which I suck at) then half or 2/3 the pot sounds good.

I also don't play PokerStars - so not sure how well it compares with other sites. Would like to here from some regular players there.

Jacks are a difficult hand to play - and my favorite hand to play - I like to limp with them early in a session (after all they are just a pair of jacks), and will raise more often later based on my table image.

I think that you should push the pot on the river. So far, this guy seems like he can't get off of his ace and you are bluffing at the pot with a 2nd best hand (which you were until the river). Ceratainly he'll pay off $50, but I think he might pay off even $80 or $100.

I agree with the other comments that betting on the turn out of position is not a move I would attempt very often. But if you do it, you have to bluff on the river as well and that's why I suggest a bluff sized raise to maintain that image.

Yeah, I really don't like how you played those Jacks. I play on Pokerstars all the time, and that's a play that I'm consistently exploiting weaker players for (and the only reason I'm able to do this is because I used to make that play consistently, but eventually realized why I shouldn't make that play - because that's the norm on Pokerstars, among other reasons). You definitely should not be playing Jacks out of position that aggressively.. preflop I think that's the biggest mistake - the rest is just the snowball effect, things kept building worse and worse from the start.

JJ is a good hand that you should be making marginal calls with. It's not really much of an aggressor hand when you're out of position, it's more of a 'sit back, watch the action, and decide if you have the best hand' kind of hand. The hand has virtually no outs, so its not a good hand to attempt pushing someone off a big hand with, or a bad player with top pair for that matter. JJ is a hand that tests your skills in calling and folding more than any other hand, I think so at least. Mind you aggression definitely does has it's place with the right flops and the right opponents.

The only situation where I would play JJ aggressively completely out of position is at a table that's full of weak/passive limpers, just so I could thin the field and make sure there's no complete garbage going in to the flop. In that case, I would raise more than you had raised, probably 5-7 times the big blind or something, that would guarantee that no one is trying to get in the pot with garbage, and it would commit people to the pot with potentially the worst of it (after all, the only hands that have the best of it would be AA, KK, QQ. Don't get me wrong though, that play takes knowing your opponents well enough to judge when they have one of those three hands). I would not be angry just to scoop the blinds with them.

However, concerning the play after the turn. If the J doesn't come on the river, I think you should probably just push in. You're already knee high in muck, and that's really your only chance of winning (although there's also the chance of him having trips already). It's either fold on the river or go all-in, and that's all dependant on your read of the guy. If you catch the Jack on the river either

A) Continue with a bet that was consistent with your progression (About 1/3 to 1/2 larger than the last raise), if you have no read on your opponent.
Check-raise if you think your ahead and that he'll bet, if he's an aggressive player like that.
C) Move all-in, if you think he's a donk who doesn't know when to fold top pair.

This used to be one of my biggest leaks. You have a moderatly strong hand pre-flop, the flop brings out a scare card, but the rules of poker say that the aggressor wins more often then not. So you keep betting strong into an opponent hopeing they have nothing.

From the cold calling I would say an ace is very possible, but more likely a meduim PP. When you bet and your opponent calls, most likely they are calling with something, whether it be top pair or a set or a medium pocket pair.

I like the bet on the flop it represents strength, but when you get called I think it's time to either just push the turn or check/fold the turn. It's like a 50/50, he either has you or he doesn't, if you say your jacks are the best then throw 'em in the pot, if not muck those suckers. It's all about how you feel about the guy. Would he play A/x A/rag?

I remember playing in a B&M and getting jacks put in a pre-flop raise, got two callers, flop 9 4 2 rainbow, opponent bets, I raise, he calls, other dude folds, HU action, turn 6, he checks, I bet, he calls, same action for the river. He ended up calling pre-flop with 94o and flopping two pair and wrecking me. I'm glad it was only 3/6 limit. Moral of the story be wary of jacks.

So yeah pushing or folding the turn sounds about right.

You're bet on the flop is fine, but after he calls you have to put the brakes on. Without knowing anything about the player, you have to give him credit for an Ace, probably something like A-10. He would have to be a complete donk to call a pot size bet on the flop with a flush draw or second pair, but you never know. I would check the turn and hope the hand is checked through. If he makes any kind of substantial bet on the turn or river I would have to pass.

flop: bet is standard.
turn: I think checking may be right depending on the player or it may be too weak depending on the player. There are some players that will be chasing a draw here and there are some players that will be willing to drop A rag to another bet. Whichever it is, you want to take the pot on the turn, so I would advocate a slightly larger raise.

Rivered J: I'm probably going to push here since he went all the way with you. He likes his ace and is probably going to call.

I Think we are forgetting that there is a very good chance he has something like K Q and that checking the turn could easily lead to a bluff

not sure I agree with everyone here. I have no problem leading into that flop and that turn. Everyone keeps saying 'Oh, they're just jacks' but basically the strategy applies for every pair, naturally, up to kings. As an opponent of yours, if I knew you'd abandon a high pocket pair at the mere sight of a scare card, certainly I'd exploit that.

As I write this, a situation from just last night occurs to me. Lot of action preflop, ends up 3 way to the flop. I'm in there, begrudgingly, with A/J suited, I'd have to explain the odd action preflop and the pot odds inherent in the call, but so it goes. I'm in. Flop A/X/X rainbow, no coordination. Bet in front of me, called, I also call. Turn, same action: bet, call, call. Now of course I'm making reluctant calls, but with so much money in the pot, and more importantly the overt uncertainty displayed by both opponents, I'm staying put. River comes a J, but that's largely irrelevant here. Both opponents check to me with obvious chagrin. I bet with the two pair (and no other card higher than a 10 onboard), dude to my left mucks, other opponent says 'donation', calls, and shows pocket kings. First dude has mucked queens, it seems.

Now, 3 way, I don't understand how both flop and turn were bet and called with underpairs, but heads up, I don't mind aggression twice. Daniel and others have often said and written that they call flops to re-evaluate on the turn. A firm turn bet may cause a weak ace to fold, or may convince a lesser holding that you 1) do hold an ace 2) aren't scared of it. Of course, it may look like an obvious steal too. Image and context matter so much. Against, say, the calling station at my table last night, I wouldn't be shocked to see him call with bottom pair on the flop, and maybe then again a turned flush draw. At some point, yes, you have to cut your losses, but this is certainly not a cut and dry situation. I have moved people off A-high flops, and I have likely been bluffed off high pairs when the tables were turned. But to simply agree to surrender a high pair as general strategy shouldn't be a hard and fast rule. The rigid idea that the 'turn is spewage' is way too sweeping a generalization. On the flip side, sort of a standard check to an A-high flop doesn't bother me either. I think what I find most bothersome here is the consensus of preferred action.

Can we all agree that if we're raised on the
turn it's an easy fold?

That was more the point of my turn bet.
If he folds, great. Flat calls, I have a chance.
If he raises, I'm done.

Check raise the flop. Give up if called.