PokerStars 2/4 Hold'em (6 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Preflop: Hero is BB with 2:club:, K:club:.
1 fold, Hero calls, MP calls, CO calls.

Flop: (8 SB) 7:diamond:, Q:club:, J:club: (4 players)
SB bets, MP folds, CO calls, SB calls.

Turn: (7 BB) 7:heart: (3 players)
SB checks, Hero bets, CO calls, SB folds.

River: (9 BB) 4:diamond: (2 players)
Hero bets, . . .

SB is TAG.

CO is FISH.

BB is SUPERDONK??

River bet is bad.

Vince Van Patten once told me that I couldn't win here by checking.

Sometimes a pot is just not yours to win, no matter how you played it. The turn isn't too bad, since you might as well bet if you plan on calling one, and betting here could get the sb to fold AK or a lower PP. River is spew in my opinion, since the only thing you are getting to fold here that beats you is the nut flush draw.

I feel your pain though, it is really hard to slow down after you've been pushing your semibluff all throughout the hand. I always feel like an idiot after I check-fold the river when my overcards+nut flush draw fails to come through in a multiway pot.

I wouldnt bother betting the turn.

You probably have no fold equity against the CO, and you'd prefer a free turn. It's also unlikely that the CO will bet if you check to him.

If the SB is competent, he'll narrow your range down to basically 10j or a flush draw, but probably still still pay you off one bet at the river if he has top pair.

Betting the river is an obvious problem, when the supposed fish is likely calling you with ace high - and you beat anything worse than ace high. If you had a 5 high flush draw, this would be different. At least then you might get better high card busted draws to fold.

Well I hate to go against Vince, but I think you will win here almost as often by checking than betting.

I'm assuming superfish means loose-passive. In this case, he's going to call with just about anything that beats you, and he won't bet anything you beat. It's a great situation, as long as you don't bet.

I agree most worse hands are folding and better hands are calling on the river.

I don't know that villain is so predictable that he will never bluff the river if checked to, though. And I really don't want to check/call. Betting prevents him from bluffing (unless he's feeling particularly frisky) and makes my life a little easier.

I also feel I have fold equity vs Ax given the way I played the hand.

What good is a read of 'fish' (loose/passive, right?) if you can't check/fold a river with king high?

If you're worried about him bluffing, then simply check/call. You still pay 1BB, but you have the added chance of picking off a bluff.

I don't think any ace high hands are ever folding this river for one more bet given the board and size of the pot.

[quote="screech"][quote=econ_tim]

I don't think any ace high hands are ever folding this river for one more bet given the board and size of the pot.[/quote]

Of course they are... where do you play??

Ice

I think he means for this type of opponent.

Loose/passive/passives generally wont fold an ace high here.

I don't think you're right. I think an LP calls with A-hi to the river, and folds when he has no piece.

A lot of loose passives fold rivers w/o a pair. Many are only LP UNTIL the river

Ice

Why did you raise the flop?

I disagree.

In shorthanded games, I find the lp's to be very untrusting. They will call down with ace high if they think it could be best.

On this board, it is very easy for hero to have a draw on the flop. When the board pairs the bottom card on teh turn and blanks the river, ace high looks like a great bluff picking hand for LP's. That's what they do. They call down way too much. So we value bet more, and bluff/semi-bluff a lot less.

As I said, I don't think that CO folds ace high here a lot in this situation. He will occassionally, but the majority of the time he's calling. Not only that, he won't have an ace high type hand all that often. Any other hand that is better than ace high will call, any hand worse, we probably beat.
I don't think we're folding a better hand 1/10 times here by betting.

Good question.

I don't play all that much 6-max. I didn't even notice it was six max, because I am a drunk.

That being said, I don't mind the flop-raise as a free-card play against SB (or even to enhance turn fold equity against TAGish sb), but I think against a loose-passive CO that called two-cold on the flop, you have to actually take a shot at getting that free-card by checking/calling.

Did you expect CO to call two cold on this flop, or were you reasonably certain you'd get it heads up with the SB?

Ice

PS- Sorry I'm a drunk. I'd like to say it won't happen again, but... you know, it's gonna.

Don't you think that's a huge leak?

OP... Don't go raising this flop man, you want multi-way action and you don't want to be putting your own bets in there at this point... Very very wrong to raise here... Nothing else in the hand should be looked at until you realize that.

Hope I don't sound critical, but I was just suprised no one had cursed you out for it yet.

I thought the flop would get more discussion too.

A couple questions: do you raise here with Acxc? If so, why not raise with Kcxc?

What range do you put SB on (remember he is tag)? Do you mind getting HU against him?

If even one player behind us will cold-call but no players will raise, would you rather call or raise?

guest=me

Econ, Why would you raise with Ac Xc here?

Guys this is basic SSHE (I hate bringing up that bloody book, but this calls for it I guess)

clean up A outs. thought that was basic SSHE.

SB probably has AA-99, AK-AT, KQ, and maybe a few more suited hands.

Of all these hands, the only ones you can really put folding pressure on post flop are TT/99, and some Ax hands where x<10.

There are 2 players behind you, and this board is very draw heavy. So you probably won't get this pot HU. I don't think cleaning up K outs is likely, since sb won't fold any hands he has that contain a king. You're probably behind to sb, you can't really clean up any king outs, and your equity won't really improve if you hit.

This hand also becomes a lot easier to play if you just call. You don't have to keep trying to force your opponents out of the pot.

I second what screech said.

Raising here is just simply not smart poker.

Haven't read all the responses yet, you labeled CO as a fish, meaning he will probably call down with any pair here. Don't bet the river, if he hasn't folded by now he's probably not going to for one more on the river.

OK. So it is a value raise.

Let's think about possible things that can happen when we raise.

One or more players behind us cold call: the raise is for value.

One or more players behind us cold call and SB 3-bets: the raise is for value.

Someone behind us 3-bets and the SB folds so we have to play HU OOP: sucks.

Both players behind us fold and SB calls or 3-bets: we get to play HU in position with more information about SB's holdings.

The big objection to raising the flop is that I will get less money in with an equity edge. I can think of two reasons why. First, me raising could prevent MP or CO from raising, in which case I could 3-bet and get a lot of money in on the flop. Or, me raising gets someone to fold who would have given an extra big bet or two on later streets had I made a flush.

It's usually better to value raise in late position, since you'll have a better chance of having more players in for one bet. By raising a first position bettor in second position, you are forcing more players to call two bets cold, which is bad for you, since even fish will often fold here. Getting heads up with the SB is not what you want here, since you'll lose potential value on the bigger betting streets when you do make the flush. Making the flush and getting the most value out of it is your main concern with this hand.

You ended up getting two callers instead of a potential three, but you also made the pot big enough that a call down with a pair or A high might become correct if you are an aggressive player.

with a drawing hand in a non-big pot that will win almost always when it hits, you want to build a pot w/o eliminating opponents.

that's how I understand it.

can't believe it went so long w/o the flop raise being mentioned in the thread!

I think that far outweighs the marginal edge you're pushing on the flop.

Also consider that, if everyone is calling, a free card isnt even that valuable even when you miss. You get paid 3 : 1 and youre 4: 1 to make the flush from the turn on, if two people behind you call. You'd prefer that everyone checked, but you're only losing a small amount of value on the bet for the call even when you miss.

you mean like this hand?

The two hands have a lot of differences.

True, this hand is four handed and has a pot of 8SB going into the flop.

That hand is three handed and has a pot of 10SB going into the flop.

This hand is less vulnerable to redraws than the other hand.

My relative position is the same in both hands.

Which factors make this a call and the other a raise?

I think the main reason is that your have a much stronger draw in the JT hand, and raising increases your equity more.

In the JT hand, as long as your opponent doesn't have you dominated, you're looking very good. If he has AK/AQ/KQ, you will often win by just spiking a pair, and your pair will hold up more often if you knock the other opponent out. If a Q falls, you may win a lot of bets off your opponent. If he has overcards, it will be much easier to push him off his hand if a scare card hits the turn.

In this hand, you will almost never win by spiking a pair, so your equity is not that high. Getting the pot HU will probably get expensive. This board will hit a lot of pf raising hands hard, and your remaining opponents might have hit it just as hard. It will be hard for you to win this pot by bluffing/semi-bluffing. It does no good for you to knock out weak pairs behind you if the pf raiser connected with his hand. You want these types of hands to stay in, because you are almost always going to have to hit one of your nine flush outs to win.

Screech can argue it better than I.

TIMMAY! "You're so cute when you're frustrated." I haven't read anything past the quoted post, so I hope I'm not being repetitive:

1) Your turn fold-equity is higher. I dunno if you plan on betting the turn or not, but (shrug)

2) Your implied odds are better. A 3rd club sucks. A queen means you could KILL BITCHES!

3) In the TJ hand, you actually have 6 likely pair outs. They're not good all the time, but whatever. In THIS thread, your kings are good some of the time, but your ducks never are

4) You're more likely to get 3-bet on this hand........


I peeked at screech's post before I hit the [submit] button.

Seems like I'm just clicking the {I SECOND} button.

Ice

where the fuck have you been!!? Answer your damn phone or something.

I dont think you'd ever want to take a free card if your raise was only called by the PFR.

Maybe if this was no limit...

- Jordan