Do u fold in this spot??? .50/1.00 blinds at a familiar home game, I pick up QQ on the button. Raise 5, SB moves in for 50, BB quickly calls, but not to confident. SB is a Kamakazie who would make that same move there with 6 3 offsuit, swear!! BB is a talented player. I'm up 30 at this point and feel confident in my play and stack to chip away and win more. Figure best case one has AK and I don't really want to coin flip 50 dollars. I fold??? OPINIONS?? SB has 77 BB has AK, I would have won!! I ended up winning 80 that night!

What were the stack sizes? Did the BB have more money?

Getting 2 to 1, I'd most likely call if indeed your read is correct (one probably has a looser hand and the good player has AK).

You hope actuall y that the loose player has a low ace so that he and the BB overlap and give you better odds.

In terms of being up for the session, if you have a large enough bankroll it shouldn't matter. If you conclude that calling this all in is right once every three times, then you do it.

never unless the moeny is really really important to you. But if you sit down with money that you are willing to lose then you call.

Because the talented player knows that the Kamakazie could be doing this with any two cards. So his range would be lower, I would have moved in when the action got to me.

you definately cant fold here

if you've ruled out aces and kings as hands for your opponents, you need to call in this spot. you're getting better than 3:1 on your money, but you look to be at worst a 43:57 favorite. if both players hold hands like ak, you can be as good as a 3:2 favorite in this hand, getting FANTASTIC odds to call

It's fine to fold queens in that situation. If I noticed that the big blind wasn't confident I would call. I also don't mind going broke on a hand if I think I have the best hand. In a cash game you're not required to make these kind of calls and you can come out ahead anyway like you did. It's really a question of whether you want to gamble.

Little backround. Started the year with a 6000 bankroll. Bad money management, bad play and even worse luck wiped it out. I bought in for 50 twice which is alot for me at this point. SB was all in but BB had about 20 left. The smooth call also worried me a bit. I have mad confidence in my play, and didn't want to coinflip 50-70 of my money. Of course in a tourney 99% of the time I make this call.

wow... horrible advice

in a cash game, you ARE required to make these kinds of calls, bc at WORST, we're getting better than pot odds.

and it's not gambling when you're anywhere from 42% to win 60+% and getting better than 2:1 on your money

Yeah I sensed a little bit of bankroll conflict. Well, I can see why you would fold in this situation.

For me, it really depends on the read. If you feel confident about it, you gotta take a shot.

Certainly, if bankroll is a concern then you may choose to make less than optimal lay down to pick better spots to risk your money (espcially if you feel you have a significant edge on this table). However, I think the suggestion is always to move down to a lower buy in (like the $25 table) if bankroll issues is preventing you from making this call.

Is that what they teach you at MIT? Please tell me you don't go to that school.

what was wrong w/ that statement?

I don't agree with either of you.

Poker IS GAMBLING, it just isn't a losing gamble for some, like the slots or roulette.

At MIT they teach you things like math and science, DUH

That's completely backwards reasoning from the way it should be. In a cash game, anytime you can get your money in when you are a favorite, you should, because if someone draws out you can just reload. In a tournament, where you have no way to replenish your chips, I would be much more inclined to fold this hand in this situation. Cash game, given your reads, you have to make this call EVERY TIME.

he is correct

Davin even when the odds are in your favor it's still gambling. There's no certainty that he will win that hand every other time or at all.

Second, you had time to read that he's putting in $70 to win $120. For every dollar he puts in he has the chance to win 1.7. He had a 42 percent chance. Sure it could be more it could also be less, he could be a huge underdog. That's like 1.3 to 1. Look if poker is how you make a living go ahead and take that risk. I'm sure after you're put in the same situation 100 times you might make a few bucks. But gambling all your money away on those odds in a home game doesn't seem like something somebody MUST do. Those odds are simply not that good. And the only time I'd say you have to make that call is in a tournament when blinds are sufficiently high.

Also don't tell me my advice is horrible. If you don't like it just say I disagree. Have some manners.

Holy shit your dumb

op already noted that sb is a maniac and bb is not confident in his hand, there's no reason to give either credit for aces or kings, so we have the best hand right now.

here's a few things you need to know:

#1 assuming that he'll set bb all in as well, he's putting in 65 to win 70+70+50 = 65 to win 170. or getting 2.62 : 1 odds, not that 1.7 bs you were spouting

#2 at worse he's 43% to win (a suited ak and a pp). with those odds, he only need to be 38% to win to make money. or he could be 46% to win (a nonsuited ak and a pp) or 50% to win (two big suited aces) or 57% to win (two non-suited big aces) 58% to win (two suited aks) or 65% to win (two non-suited aks). the hands in parantheses are you two opponent's hands.

#3 these odds ARE that good. if we averaged out those hands, we see he has 53% pot equity, but let's just make it easy and say he has 50% equity. basically, everytime he makes that play, he'll be expected to make $30:
125*.5 - 65*.5 = 30.

#4 if you cant afford to make this call, you cant afford to be playing in that game... simple as that

#5 tourney chips are so much more valuable than in cash games. by saying that you'd be more inclined to make this call in a cash game rather than a tourney is horrendous. sure if you were short stacked, then yes, it's a push. but w/ an average stack you fold this hand more often than not, because once you're out of a tourney you cant buy back in. your thinking is completely backwards

#6 your definition of gambling is completely off. poker is a game of numbers and feel. our op made the read and now needs to apply the math. we cant control the cards, but we can control the spots in which we get our money in. aces get cracked everyday, so i guess we shouldnt play those either right?


i dont flame often. but then again, it's not often that someone blatantly gives bad advice

You don't include the amount you might put in the pot when calculating the pot odds of calling the pot. Give me your full name. I'm calling your school. There''s been a mistake. There's no way you go there.

In a tournament the goal is to get all the chips, which should mean you have to gamble when a lot of chips are out there. In a cash game it is simply to make money. Blinds don't raise in cash game, like they do in tourneys, so I feel your reasoning is backwards.

depends on the stage of tourney you're in.

early stages... i'd rather fold and build my stack through smaller spots
later stages... call against smaller stacks, but not against a bigstack if we dont have to

Well, there are certainly two camps of thinking here:

1. The folks who push the numerical edges.
2. The folks who are willing to take less risk but potentially make less profit by avoiding marginal "big loss" situations.

Unfortunately, poker is too much a game of partial information for us to definitively conclude what is best.

My experience has been that there are certainly enough fishes out there at the $0.50/$1 tables for you to take fewer risks but still get a good profit. Therefore, givin the chief's bankroll issues, the fold is a valid.

However, the read AND the odds say he needs to call if bankroll is not an issue.

In terms of including the money you might put in, you can include those as part of your implied odds calculation. If everyone calls the 50 raise, they're likely committing their entire stacks after the flop. Even if you don't use implied odds numbers, he's still putting in 45 into a pot of 105 which gives him slighyly better than 2.3 to 1.

Given that based on his read he thinks he's
1. 1 to 1 with the bb and
2. 60% chance 4 to 1 favorate, 20% chance 1 to 1, and 20% chance 1 to 4 underdog.

You can see where 2.3 to 1 is sufficient. He

I think the main argument in this thread is a very interesting one.

The one point of view that Davin is pushing states that in a cash game if you have an edge in pot equity, no matter how small the edge is you should take it.

I think the other point of view is the others would rather forego this small edge and wait for a chance to put that money in with a bigger edge.

I often find myself in situations like this. I will push the small edge if I am in a tougher game with tougher opponents where the opportunity to exploit big advantages is generally not available. If you are playing a tough opponent you have to exploit these small edges or else you will go home a loser. If I am playing against a weak opponent I will sometimes laydown hands where I have a small advantage in order to wait for a better situation where I have a bigger advantage.

In a tournament, I agree with what Davin has said in the context in which he said it. In the early stages of the tournament I try to pick up lots of smaller pots and only get a lot of chips into the pot when I have a big advantage. Once you accumulate a stack, then you can take a lot of chances. If this is early in a tournament, I'm probably laying this hand down if the second player invovled in the hand is someone who's play I respect. Late in a tournament with a chip lead, there is no way I'm getting away from the hand.

I'm guessing that as a player gets more expert in his/her reads and the competition gets tougher, the edge matters more and more.

Of course, some players are very analytical and start off very focused on the edge. But most people don't have the math skills to do detailed calculations in real time. Many don't even know the basic odds and play by feel and psychology.

I know I tend to go for the easy money online and pray on the fish who generate big edges first. I know I'm making less profit by not exploting all the edges, but exploiting those edges requires a lot of hard work that I'm not willing to put in for a hobby =)

I've found small edges much easier to exploit playing in real life since I have more information (from physical tells) to base my calculations on.

Anyway, I guess we have fully diverged from the original post =)

the reason i was so adament about a call here is because this is a big mathematical edge, not a small edge that we can afford to pass up for better spots in the future

i can completely understand folding queens against one opponent (as seen in this post http://www.fullcontactpoker.com/poker-foru...ic.php?t=33319) , but against two, whom we know dont have aces or kings, is simply unacceptable.

i mean, we're expected to make $30 when we make this call.[/b]