Over this past weekend, I have come to a realization about my Omaha 8 game that seemingly is costing me, but I am unsure of whether it should be or not.
Without posting any specific hands (I would have to weed through the hundreds to find the 4 or 5 that I am referring to), I found that when it got down to just me and the big blind after the river, that I called a bet with many second or third best hands in one direction, and/or second or third best hands in both directions, figuring that the chances of the big blind having the cards to win in both directions would be slim. Every time I came to that conclusion, I was incorrect. 4 or 5 big bets lost, that possibly should not have been. It was not the same opponent each time, but do remember that in each instance, the opponent was a loose passive player.
In all cases, the pot was not raised pre-flop, and the BB either called my bets throughout the hand, OR I called their bets throughout with my excellent scoop potential hands.
Had the opponent I was against been in just about any other position, I honsetly do not think that I would have called the river bet that they made, but I did ONLY based on it being the big blind (and I think once the SB). Am I incorrect to be modifying whether to call one BB on the end (to very likely win half and a slim chance to win both) based on the playing position of my opponent?
5 hands in particular is not a large number to be possibly changing one's playstyle, but it really became clear to me after the 4th or 5th loss when I did that.
Please comment if you can. :?
Full Version: does anybody else factor in that it is the blinds?
IMO, Calling one bet on the end when you are h/u and have a chance each way is fine in a reasonable pot and ( to quote Dannemann) only "a very small error" in a small pot.
It may be that a bigger leak is occuring earlier in the play.....when does he start betting out? Or if you are doing the pushing, how good do you feel about your hand after he calls your flop bet?
Edit: For some reason I assumed the OP was focussed on limit O8, which my reply is. In PLO8 you need to be a lot more circumspect.
It may be that a bigger leak is occuring earlier in the play.....when does he start betting out? Or if you are doing the pushing, how good do you feel about your hand after he calls your flop bet?
Edit: For some reason I assumed the OP was focussed on limit O8, which my reply is. In PLO8 you need to be a lot more circumspect.
that I called a bet with many second or third best hands in one direction, and/or second or third best hands in both directions,
From day one you should've known that split game is about (chasing) the nuts.
figuring that the chances of the big blind having the cards to win in both directions would be slim.[
That's when the big pot is won/scooped. Love to see people think that "it takes them four cards to scoop...".
Don't be lazy, post your hands and plug your leaks. I always go thru several days of hand history to see my problems.
From day one you should've known that split game is about (chasing) the nuts.
figuring that the chances of the big blind having the cards to win in both directions would be slim.[
That's when the big pot is won/scooped. Love to see people think that "it takes them four cards to scoop...".
Don't be lazy, post your hands and plug your leaks. I always go thru several days of hand history to see my problems.
I also had a BB hand I would like to discuss.
I was in BB with 893K. About 5 players saw the flop without raising.
Flop 889 ns. Everyone checked and button potted. I pot-raised, everyone else folded and button called.
Turn was a low card 2, I potted again, Button called.
River was a high card 10, I shoved, button called...
How would you have played differently, would you had folded on the flop? How about if you pot-raised button then button came back on top of you, would you had folded then?
Result: button had 8TQQ.
I was in BB with 893K. About 5 players saw the flop without raising.
Flop 889 ns. Everyone checked and button potted. I pot-raised, everyone else folded and button called.
Turn was a low card 2, I potted again, Button called.
River was a high card 10, I shoved, button called...
How would you have played differently, would you had folded on the flop? How about if you pot-raised button then button came back on top of you, would you had folded then?
Result: button had 8TQQ.
QUOTE (JacKingOff_suit)
that I called a bet with many second or third best hands in one direction, and/or second or third best hands in both directions,
From day one you should've known that split game is about (chasing) the nuts.
figuring that the chances of the big blind having the cards to win in both directions would be slim.[
That's when the big pot is won/scooped. Love to see people think that "it takes them four cards to scoop...".
Don't be lazy, post your hands and plug your leaks. I always go thru several days of hand history to see my problems.
From day one you should've known that split game is about (chasing) the nuts.
figuring that the chances of the big blind having the cards to win in both directions would be slim.[
That's when the big pot is won/scooped. Love to see people think that "it takes them four cards to scoop...".
Don't be lazy, post your hands and plug your leaks. I always go thru several days of hand history to see my problems.
Just so you are aware, its Limit Omaha 8, not PLO. We are talking about calling one more big bet on the river, not calling a pot-sized bet.
I will try to find some of the hands in question and post them.
QUOTE (Rocketwadster)
QUOTE (JacKingOff_suit)
that I called a bet with many second or third best hands in one direction, and/or second or third best hands in both directions,
From day one you should've known that split game is about (chasing) the nuts.
figuring that the chances of the big blind having the cards to win in both directions would be slim.[
That's when the big pot is won/scooped. Love to see people think that "it takes them four cards to scoop...".
Don't be lazy, post your hands and plug your leaks. I always go thru several days of hand history to see my problems.
From day one you should've known that split game is about (chasing) the nuts.
figuring that the chances of the big blind having the cards to win in both directions would be slim.[
That's when the big pot is won/scooped. Love to see people think that "it takes them four cards to scoop...".
Don't be lazy, post your hands and plug your leaks. I always go thru several days of hand history to see my problems.
Just so you are aware, its Limit Omaha 8, not PLO. We are talking about calling one more big bet on the river, not calling a pot-sized bet.
I will try to find some of the hands in question and post them.
Jeez, LO8 still requires the same discipline. I folded more often preflop in LO8 than in PLO8.
Also, We are talking about calling one more big bet on the river
If you know you were going to call that bet on the river, why didn't you put that in on the turn instead in general?
QUOTE (JacKingOff_suit)
I also had a BB hand I would like to discuss.
I was in BB with 893K. About 5 players saw the flop without raising.
Flop 889 ns. Everyone checked and button potted. I pot-raised, everyone else folded and button called.
Turn was a low card 2, I potted again, Button called.
River was a high card 10, I shoved, button called...
How would you have played differently, would you had folded on the flop? How about if you pot-raised button then button came back on top of you, would you had folded then?
I would have played it the same....and hoped he doesn't have 99 or 8T.
Result: button had 8TQQ.
I was in BB with 893K. About 5 players saw the flop without raising.
Flop 889 ns. Everyone checked and button potted. I pot-raised, everyone else folded and button called.
Turn was a low card 2, I potted again, Button called.
River was a high card 10, I shoved, button called...
How would you have played differently, would you had folded on the flop? How about if you pot-raised button then button came back on top of you, would you had folded then?
I would have played it the same....and hoped he doesn't have 99 or 8T.
Result: button had 8TQQ.
QUOTE (JacKingOff_suit)
Also, We are talking about calling one more big bet on the river
If you know you were going to call that bet on the river, why didn't you put that in on the turn instead in general?
If you know you were going to call that bet on the river, why didn't you put that in on the turn instead in general?
I missed this when I read it earlier - I wasn't necessarily going to be calling the bet on the river regardless, as I may have been betting depending on the card that came. Then, when I missed my draw, but still had a fairly good second or third best hand in one or both directions, is where the specific question is being raised - do you play differently when it is the BB that you are against, when you are fairly certain that you will not lose both (if any)? :?
QUOTE (JacKingOff_suit)
I also had a BB hand I would like to discuss.
I was in BB with 893K. About 5 players saw the flop without raising.
Flop 889 ns. Everyone checked and button potted. I pot-raised, everyone else folded and button called.
Turn was a low card 2, I potted again, Button called.
River was a high card 10, I shoved, button called...
How would you have played differently, would you had folded on the flop? How about if you pot-raised button then button came back on top of you, would you had folded then?
Result: button had 8TQQ.
I was in BB with 893K. About 5 players saw the flop without raising.
Flop 889 ns. Everyone checked and button potted. I pot-raised, everyone else folded and button called.
Turn was a low card 2, I potted again, Button called.
River was a high card 10, I shoved, button called...
How would you have played differently, would you had folded on the flop? How about if you pot-raised button then button came back on top of you, would you had folded then?
Result: button had 8TQQ.
you played this hand correctly. what i don't like is your oppenents play. you had him drawing to 5 outs and he had to know that if you had 99 (very possible) he would have been drawing to two outs and also he didn't have a low. the next right play is to re-load and take this sucker for all he's got.
QUOTE (Rocketwadster)
QUOTE (JacKingOff_suit)
Also, We are talking about calling one more big bet on the river
If you know you were going to call that bet on the river, why didn't you put that in on the turn instead in general?
I missed this when I read it earlier - I wasn't necessarily going to be calling the bet on the river regardless, as I may have been betting depending on the card that came. Then, when I missed my draw, but still had a fairly good second or third best hand in one or both directions, is where the specific question is being raised - do you play differently when it is the BB that you are against, when you are fairly certain that you will not lose both (if any)? :?
i don't play it differently against the big blind except by the fact that i have position on him. if he's the only one in the hand betting i take it that he's the one that has the goods.
you can also consider the opponents vs. the board. does he always raise with AA2x? if the board has A-2-4 and he's betting i'll take that he doesn't have trips but more likely the straight.
QUOTE (navybuttons)
i don't play it differently against the big blind except by the fact that i have position on him. if he's the only one in the hand betting i take it that he's the one that has the goods.
you can also consider the opponents vs. the board. does he always raise with AA2x? if the board has A-2-4 and he's betting i'll take that he doesn't have trips but more likely the straight.
you can also consider the opponents vs. the board. does he always raise with AA2x? if the board has A-2-4 and he's betting i'll take that he doesn't have trips but more likely the straight.
Did you read the question? It is specific to when you have a second or third best hand in one or both directions, and the BB has made a bet on the river. It has nothing to do with position anymore. :?
I just went through the maximum number of hand histories that Absolute will give you (only 200), and didnt see any of the four or five hands I was referring to.
Here is one that sticks out in my mind, recreated as best as I can remember (suits may be slightly different):
9 handed, Omaha 8, $0.50/$1.00, I am on the button:
3 limpers, I limp with :heartsa: :spades3: :clubs4: :spadesq: , SB completes, BB checks.
Note: I limped here as opposed to raising, as this table was extremely loose pre-flop, and my raise would not have narrowed the field at all.
The flop comes :spades10: :spadesj: :diamonds4:
Checked to me, I bet, SB folds, BB calls, everyone else folds.
Turn comes :diamonds6:
Checked to me, I bet, BB calls.
River is :spades7:
BB bets, I call.
BB shows :clubsa: :clubs2: :spadesk: :spades9:
His king high flush takes the high, and his ace 2 is better than my ace 3 for low.
This may not be the best example (it was days ago, and I have played hundreds of hands since), but these are the types of hands in general I am referring to. I have the second best low hand, and the third best high hand, and lost both to the BB, who woke up on the river. This player was not particularly good (if memory serves, all of my opponents in the four or five hands that I am talking about were bad). He had a pretty good hand in this one, but for him to have the exact cards that beat me in both directions was slim was it not? I can't honestly see me folding in these instances to one more bet with hands like this, but 4 or 5 times I played it like this against the BB, and got scooped. :cry:
Here is one that sticks out in my mind, recreated as best as I can remember (suits may be slightly different):
9 handed, Omaha 8, $0.50/$1.00, I am on the button:
3 limpers, I limp with :heartsa: :spades3: :clubs4: :spadesq: , SB completes, BB checks.
Note: I limped here as opposed to raising, as this table was extremely loose pre-flop, and my raise would not have narrowed the field at all.
The flop comes :spades10: :spadesj: :diamonds4:
Checked to me, I bet, SB folds, BB calls, everyone else folds.
Turn comes :diamonds6:
Checked to me, I bet, BB calls.
River is :spades7:
BB bets, I call.
BB shows :clubsa: :clubs2: :spadesk: :spades9:
His king high flush takes the high, and his ace 2 is better than my ace 3 for low.
This may not be the best example (it was days ago, and I have played hundreds of hands since), but these are the types of hands in general I am referring to. I have the second best low hand, and the third best high hand, and lost both to the BB, who woke up on the river. This player was not particularly good (if memory serves, all of my opponents in the four or five hands that I am talking about were bad). He had a pretty good hand in this one, but for him to have the exact cards that beat me in both directions was slim was it not? I can't honestly see me folding in these instances to one more bet with hands like this, but 4 or 5 times I played it like this against the BB, and got scooped. :cry:
QUOTE (Rocketwadster)
I just went through the maximum number of hand histories that Absolute will give you (only 200), and didnt see any of the four or five hands I was referring to.
Here is one that sticks out in my mind, recreated as best as I can remember (suits may be slightly different):
9 handed, Omaha 8, $0.50/$1.00, I am on the button:
3 limpers, I limp with :heartsa: :spades3: :clubs4: :spadesq: , SB completes, BB checks.
Note: I limped here as opposed to raising, as this table was extremely loose pre-flop, and my raise would not have narrowed the field at all.
The flop comes :spades10: :spadesj: :diamonds4:
Checked to me, I bet, SB folds, BB calls, everyone else folds.
Turn comes :diamonds6:
Checked to me, I bet, BB calls.
River is :spades7:
BB bets, I call.
BB shows :clubsa: :clubs2: :spadesk: :spades9:
His king high flush takes the high, and his ace 2 is better than my ace 3 for low.
This may not be the best example (it was days ago, and I have played hundreds of hands since), but these are the types of hands in general I am referring to. I have the second best low hand, and the third best high hand, and lost both to the BB, who woke up on the river. This player was not particularly good (if memory serves, all of my opponents in the four or five hands that I am talking about were bad). He had a pretty good hand in this one, but for him to have the exact cards that beat me in both directions was slim was it not? I can't honestly see me folding in these instances to one more bet with hands like this, but 4 or 5 times I played it like this against the BB, and got scooped. :cry:
Here is one that sticks out in my mind, recreated as best as I can remember (suits may be slightly different):
9 handed, Omaha 8, $0.50/$1.00, I am on the button:
3 limpers, I limp with :heartsa: :spades3: :clubs4: :spadesq: , SB completes, BB checks.
Note: I limped here as opposed to raising, as this table was extremely loose pre-flop, and my raise would not have narrowed the field at all.
The flop comes :spades10: :spadesj: :diamonds4:
Checked to me, I bet, SB folds, BB calls, everyone else folds.
Turn comes :diamonds6:
Checked to me, I bet, BB calls.
River is :spades7:
BB bets, I call.
BB shows :clubsa: :clubs2: :spadesk: :spades9:
His king high flush takes the high, and his ace 2 is better than my ace 3 for low.
This may not be the best example (it was days ago, and I have played hundreds of hands since), but these are the types of hands in general I am referring to. I have the second best low hand, and the third best high hand, and lost both to the BB, who woke up on the river. This player was not particularly good (if memory serves, all of my opponents in the four or five hands that I am talking about were bad). He had a pretty good hand in this one, but for him to have the exact cards that beat me in both directions was slim was it not? I can't honestly see me folding in these instances to one more bet with hands like this, but 4 or 5 times I played it like this against the BB, and got scooped. :cry:
Outcome of this hand is "just one of those things".
However, it does demonstrate the point I was trying to make earlier.
I like your flop bet: you may win it here, and you have plenty of equity if you get several callers.
However you only get one caller, so you see the turn heads up. Now what would he have called your bet with? probably a flush draw or a set or possibly a broadway wrap. (Very) maybe, 2 pair. All of these hands are ahead of you on the turn, so WHY ARE YOU BETTING HERE? Just take the free card.
When the river comes, call if he bets and bet if checked to you (....so he can CR and you still lose that extra big bet, but you know what I mean?).
QUOTE (Rocketwadster)
I just went through the maximum number of hand histories that Absolute will give you (only 200), and didnt see any of the four or five hands I was referring to.
Here is one that sticks out in my mind, recreated as best as I can remember (suits may be slightly different):
9 handed, Omaha 8, $0.50/$1.00, I am on the button:
3 limpers, I limp with :heartsa: :spades3: :clubs4: :spadesq: , SB completes, BB checks.
Note: I limped here as opposed to raising, as this table was extremely loose pre-flop, and my raise would not have narrowed the field at all.
The flop comes :spades10: :spadesj: :diamonds4:
Checked to me, I bet, SB folds, BB calls, everyone else folds.
Turn comes :diamonds6:
Checked to me, I bet, BB calls.
River is :spades7:
BB bets, I call.
BB shows :clubsa: :clubs2: :spadesk: :spades9:
His king high flush takes the high, and his ace 2 is better than my ace 3 for low.
This may not be the best example (it was days ago, and I have played hundreds of hands since), but these are the types of hands in general I am referring to. I have the second best low hand, and the third best high hand, and lost both to the BB, who woke up on the river. This player was not particularly good (if memory serves, all of my opponents in the four or five hands that I am talking about were bad). He had a pretty good hand in this one, but for him to have the exact cards that beat me in both directions was slim was it not? I can't honestly see me folding in these instances to one more bet with hands like this, but 4 or 5 times I played it like this against the BB, and got scooped. :cry:
Here is one that sticks out in my mind, recreated as best as I can remember (suits may be slightly different):
9 handed, Omaha 8, $0.50/$1.00, I am on the button:
3 limpers, I limp with :heartsa: :spades3: :clubs4: :spadesq: , SB completes, BB checks.
Note: I limped here as opposed to raising, as this table was extremely loose pre-flop, and my raise would not have narrowed the field at all.
The flop comes :spades10: :spadesj: :diamonds4:
Checked to me, I bet, SB folds, BB calls, everyone else folds.
Turn comes :diamonds6:
Checked to me, I bet, BB calls.
River is :spades7:
BB bets, I call.
BB shows :clubsa: :clubs2: :spadesk: :spades9:
His king high flush takes the high, and his ace 2 is better than my ace 3 for low.
This may not be the best example (it was days ago, and I have played hundreds of hands since), but these are the types of hands in general I am referring to. I have the second best low hand, and the third best high hand, and lost both to the BB, who woke up on the river. This player was not particularly good (if memory serves, all of my opponents in the four or five hands that I am talking about were bad). He had a pretty good hand in this one, but for him to have the exact cards that beat me in both directions was slim was it not? I can't honestly see me folding in these instances to one more bet with hands like this, but 4 or 5 times I played it like this against the BB, and got scooped. :cry:
Quit ya whining,
just be happy that BB didn't charge you one extra small bet preflop, and one extra big bet on the turn.
Just don't forget this,
QUOTE (Steve Badger)
The other small pot/singles to look for are "orphan" pots, pots nobody seems to want. These are pots you can make one bet at, and then you are done. If you win the pot, great, if you get called you back off and very seldom continue to try to win the pot.
QUOTE (Rocketwadster)
QUOTE (navybuttons)
i don't play it differently against the big blind except by the fact that i have position on him. if he's the only one in the hand betting i take it that he's the one that has the goods.
you can also consider the opponents vs. the board. does he always raise with AA2x? if the board has A-2-4 and he's betting i'll take that he doesn't have trips but more likely the straight.
Did you read the question? It is specific to when you have a second or third best hand in one or both directions, and the BB has made a bet on the river. It has nothing to do with position anymore. :?
you're right but you still have to read your oppent i.e. betting patterns and the like. i might factor in that it's the big blind but that's the least of my factors. the bigger factors are pot odds, do i have a high and low, how good are my hands to the board etc. again, it depends on the board if the board is 9-9-8-7-7, it's very liekly that the only hand that really hooked up with the board was playing from the big blind.
Like I mentioned, that was probably a poor example, as my hand ended up pretty good both ways, but the others were not so clear cut as to whether to call on the river or not. I recall another one where I ended up with top two pair for a high, and an ace 4 for a low, with the BB having trips 9's and an ace 3 for a low to scoop against me.
Next time, I have to remember to request the hand history as soon as they occur (as Absolute will only give me the last 200).
Next time, I have to remember to request the hand history as soon as they occur (as Absolute will only give me the last 200).
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