A few situations have come up in the $10 home tourney that I run every week and I wanted to hear others opinions or how these are usually handled.

First Situation: The blinds in our gamee raise every 20 minutes. This past week, we had two tables of 6 start and after each table got to 3 players, the "final table" of 6 starts. Which ever table goes down to 3 players first waits for the other to get to 3 players. When the one table got to 3 players, the blinds were at 3/6. The other table took a lot longer and the blinds made it to 5/10 before they were down to 3 players.

Two questions:
1) Is this an acceptable way to narrow it down to one table?? Or, should each table continue play until there is a total of 6 players left, no matter how many come from each table??
2) If we continue to narrow to one table, should the blinds continue to raise every 20 mins no matter how many levels the waiting table misses?? So, when the "final table" starts, the blinds are where the time says they are.

Any commnets on this would be greatly appreciated.

Second situation: Two players are heads up. One has a little over 1300 chips, the other is down to 30 or so. The low stack is all in with 9/5. The big stack calls him with 6/2. The board reads 10 10 4 4 J. Obviously, it is a spilt pot with each have two pair with the jack kicker. After the river is turned over, the big stack says "he wins it with the 9 kicker." The small stack starts to rake in the chips when an observer says "no, cause the jack was on the board." The small stack says he knew that, but when the big stack said he won it, he was going to take the chips cause he needed all the help he could get.

Two questions:
3) Is it wrong for the small stack to take the pot, even though he knew he didn't win it??
4) Is it wrong for the observer to make a comment on the winner of the hand??

Again, any commnets on this would be greatly appreciated.

A few other questions:
5) If a players says "call and raise", then is he commited to "call" because that was stated first?? Or is he allowed to raise??

6) We had a player (We'll call him Bob) that was one of two players left in the hand, with the other one going all-in. Bob did both of these:
a) Bob is thinking about if to call and shows his hand to two players that at still in the tourney. Then makes his decision. Forget if he calls/folds or shows/doesn't show everyone else, is it wrong for him to show other players his cards while he is thinking??
Bob is thinking about the call and shows his hand to a player that had already been knocked out. The player out of the game nods "yes" to him, then Bob calls. Is it wrong for him to get an opinion about the hand from someone else??

7) A player is showing his hand (A 6) and the board shows A 7 5 4 3. He says "I have the ace" and shows it. The other player says "two pair" and shows 4 7. The first player says "but I also have the straight" and shows the 6. What is your opinion on this?? Just bad table manners or should the A's be his hand??

Sorry for the long post, but any comments/suggestions on any of the topics would be helpful. Thanks.

1. i don't think is a correct way at all. nobody in a tournament should have to wait for play while the clock is running--save a minute while they move to a different table. IMHO, here's a better way of doing it:

start with 12 players, 6 on 2 tables. when you're down to 10, even out the tables (e.g. first table has 6, other has 4, draw cards at the 6-person table and the highest card moves his chips to the other table). when you're down to 8, even out the tables, and when you're down to 6, make a final table.


2. you won't have to worry about the blinds if you even out tables. that's what they do in every professional tournament, even out the tables every time a certain number of players is eliminated.

theoretically, however, if you continue to do it your way, blinds increasing shouldn't matter because everyone on the final table will start with the same average stack and same blinds. but i strongly stress having an even-out method.


3. in professional tournaments, you're not allowed to drag the pot, the dealer has to give it to you. in home games, it's whatever your home rules are. if there are no specific rules, cards speak is generally the best way--people saying "i won" shouldn't matter. that pot should be split.


4. again, depends on the home rules. professional tournaments, it's not wrong, but it's not ethical. remember daniel's post where he had a seven-straight with the high five-straight on the board? the pot should have been split but he said "straight" and the other person mucked, and the dealer gave daniel the chips since the other guy mucked. it would be unethical for someone to point out that the pot is split, but not technically wrong.


5. no string bets/raises. he can only call. but again, it's your home game... if you're laxed about it, let him raise, but in any casino, that would be only a call.


6. if the people are not in a hand, it's not wrong. i remember reading phil hellmuth's blog talking about a hand, and a detail in the hand was that one person showed his friend pocket jacks and mucked them after they just made a joke of "what would you do right now if the next hand you got pocket jacks".

same way, if the people are not in the tournament, it's not wrong to show your hand. i remember mike matusow getting queens and facing a bet, raise, and all-in, showing the crowd and whining for a bit, then finally folding the queens. if you show your cards, you will undoubtedly get some kind of opinion, be it from someone's eyes or verbal communication. it's not wrong but it is unethical to get opinions, because it's unfair to the opponent you're facing. again, depends on the home game rules.

finally, showing your cards to someone IN THE HAND is a dead hand in casinos, i believe. but again, they're your home game rules.


7. not wrong, but very unethical. it's called slowrolling. don't do it in a club, you'll get your ass kicked. you should make a rule about this in your home game, too... no slowrolling.


hope this helps,
aseem

Why not make the final table with 9 people? That way, the game continues and you don't have to worry about the blinds. Of course, if this is impossible, I would have the other 3 sit and when you get to 6 keep the blinds where they are.



Yes, it's wrong for him to take it and no, it's not wrong for the observer to make a comment. The cards are the cards. You'd be surprised how often this happens.



5. No string bets. It doesn't work in the casino so you shouldn't do it at home. Tell people before the game and don't allow them to do it during the game. If you say call, you call. That's it.
6. In my home game people sometimes show their cards to people who are out of the game. I don't, mostly because I don't want these people getting a read on me in later tourneys. I don't have a problem with it, but I don't think you should show your cards to anyone if you don't have to. Soliciting advice is BS.
7. That situation is known as slowrolling. Worm did it in Rounders to Maurice and the other Russian guy at the Chesterfield. They wanted to kick his butt. It is an amateurish, punk move. I wouldn't be friends with people like that.
Hope it helps!

Thank you both for your replies.

1. I think the fairest way to do it is to try to keep the tables even size till you can move all to one table. I say this because what if you are small stacked when your table gets down to 3, but the other table still has 5 people. You maybe able to suck some chips from the smaller stacks over there while the blinds are still smaller, because the blinds have to go up because if not you are giving the smaller stacks an advantage of being able to sit back and wait on cards. I guess i covered 1 and 2 in one there.

3. Yes he is absolutely wrong especially because he knew he didn't win. Basically I would look at it as him trying to steal money out of my pocket.

4. No I feel like if somebody is observing and they see something incorrect for the integrity of the game you need to say something.

5. That is very boarderline. I mean if you want to be very picky I guess you could say you have to take what he says first, but I have been in tournaments where that particular phrase was acceptable. If it is going to be a big deal you need to make a house rule one way or the other.

6. I don't think he should be showing his hand to anyone at the table or anywhere for that matter one player per hand you cannot get help for your hand. It doesn't have to be spoken help either he could be just watching them for their reaction to what they see. I think this makes 7. very easy to answer. His hand would be dead then.

I agree with the responses "akishore" gave except for point 6.

In a pro tournament the rule is "one player to a hand". You can't show people and you definitely can't get opinions on whether to play or not.

I've seen people flash their cards then fold, similar to what Howard did, and this is usually over looked. However, if you show your hand to anyone and intend to continue playing - that is definitely against the rules.

That being said, it's a home game - so you guys have to make your own rules. In my home game, we let people show their cards to people who have been knocked out, but no comments can be made or advice asked.


As far as balancing a table, here is how we do it:

The method to move players is to wait until the empty seat at the short
table is due to get the Big Blind. The person at the full table who is
supposed to get the Big Blind next will move to the empty seat at the
short table (that is about to get the BB), and post the BB as normal.
This way no one's position is being comprimised and no one has to post the blinds any sooner than normal.

to Rob-L, you're probably right about the professional tournament one-person-one-hand rule. i belive both people realized their hands would be dead when they showed their hands. again, it's a home game, so make your own rules.

as for the big-blind method of moving people, it's not so bad with two tables, but anymore than that, and IMO it doesn't work well.

1. it gives unfair positional disadvantages to some people at the small table. if two people directly to your right bust, you'll be UTG three times in a row (when you're actually UTG, then when you introduce a big blind, and third when you introduce another big blind). in a cash game, this is normal and is not such a big deal, but in a tournament it can mean much more.

2. if you have more than two tables, and one table busts two or more at a time, that table will be playing less-than-full for two hands or more. with an even-out method, you can also make sure no table plays less than 9-handed if each table has 10 normally. for example:

5 tables of 10 for 50 people. let's say one table has a big hand and 3 people bust. 2 of the four other tables are chosen at random, and from each table, one person is chosen at random, to take a seat at the shorter table. so now you have two tables of 10 and three tables of 9, rather than 4 tables of 10 one table of 7. also, you don't have to worry about the big blind, you're automatically dealt in the next hand. i believe this is the method used at the wsop and also used by many online sites in their MTT's. correct me if i'm wrong.

aseem

first situation:
One table should not stop playing while the other continues to narrow it down. Play should be hand-for-hand until a total of 6 people are left for the final table, no matter which table they are from (it doesnt matter if 1 table has 4 and the other has 2). The blinds just keep raising every 20 minutes and no one is waiting.
Second situation:
yes it is wrong for the small stack to take the pot and yes I believe it is ok for an observer to advise both players of the split pot. This happens every now & then in my home games, if the observer makes the correct anouncement, i see nothing wrong with it if he/she is right.
5) he is allowed to raise.
6) i do not disapprove of players showing their hands to others, this happens alot in my home games, but the observer should not help the player make the decision in my opinion.
7) me and my buddy do this to each other all the time, his hand is his hand, so you can't only allow him the Aces, he has the 6, so he does have the straight, you can't say "you have a pair of aces", because his best hand is the straight, call it bad table manners, but me and my buddy do this to piss each other off all the time.

You are right - it has limitations. But the OP stated he was running a two table tourney - and my home games usually have only 2 tables as well. It worked OK for a three table tourney too, but you are correct - any more than 3 and there are better ways to balance.

Thanks all for the replies. Lots of different opinions about a few of the questions. Overall, it seems that the person holding the game needs to set the "house rules" for some of the situations. Here is my opinion on them, some of them formed before hearing responses, some of them after hearing responses:

1) Everyone pretty much said to never stop a table. I agree with that, but a few of the players at my game insisted on waiting until 3 and 3, so I did that last time. I usually only have one table, so I haven't ran into that situation until my last game.

2) I won't be doing it that way, so don't need to know this now.

3) The small stack taking it is still iffy to me, no decision.

4) In my opinion, it is wrong for the observer to make a comment on the hand. I also think it is wrong for people to make comments such had "who has that straight?" or "someone's on the flush draw".

5) I think the player should only be allowed to call since that is what they said. Where do you draw the line if it gets to "I call..........and raise"?

6) I presonally hate when people out of the game want to see my hand. I also hate when people show everyone, but I always look for reactions on the other people's faces to gain more information about the hand. I never show my hands while play is going on. But, I do show when I had a lot, even when I bet people out. I like people to see that my style changes all the time.

7) I don't think he should be stuck to having the A's, but I think this is a BS move to do that. Made me think of Maverick when the one guy says he has two pair, 8s and 8s. (Or whatever the 4 of a kind actually was.)

Anyway, thanks all.

I get a little sideways about how people show their cards sometimes. I say that if someone doesn't show both cards, then they only get to play the card they showed. Of course, nobody else says this, so it's not a rule. But it bothers me... people want to hide their kicker or whatever. At any rate, it's a form of slow-roll, and I say it shouldn't stand. I had a buddy in one had who had K-9 and board of 4-T-Q turn K river something else... but I bet the flop (everyone checked to me and there was a flush draw, so I wanted to win it now), bet the turn (he checked again) and checked down the river and he said "I missed" and I said "I have a pair of 4's" and as I was taking the pot he said "I have kings". It irked me. He said he missed his draw, then had top pair. He didn't MISS! He also had 9-9 against someone else's KK and the board was something like T76 suited up, turn 9, river something insignificant but when they made it to the river he turned up one of his 9's. His opponent showed the KK, then he turned up his other 9. He was only afraid of the flush, but it wasn't what his opponent was betting. If his opponent had the flush, a pair of nines would have lost just as surely as the trip nines. It wasn't an intentional slow-roll, but he turned it up one at a time so it was a sort of slow-roll. But to avoid the chance of it being understood as a slow-roll and really pissing someone off, just turn over both cards at the same time. It will save a lot of hassle. Another reason to turn over both at the same time is so that everyone at the table can assist in reading the hands. That way someone ELSE can tell you he has a straight and he can't play his "Pair of aces... and a straight" game.

Hey.

Everyone's covered everything, but I'm going to add my two pennies because I'm a dick like that.

If there's any noticeable pause between "call" and "raise," then it's a call. If he puts any chips in, and moves for more chips, it's a call. If he says, "Well, I'll call and raise" without skipping a beat it's just fine.

If you show your hand to someone, and he gives you advice of any kind, your hand should be dead. One player to a hand. Two more eyes and one more brain = better read. You shouldn't have to beat your opponent AND his neighbor. Don't show your cards to anyone while you're still playing.

The small stack does not get that pot if the cards were, at any point, turned over. Cards read.

The observer is right in pointing out that he hand should be split, assuming the cards were turned over at any point. Recalling someone's hand BEFORE his opponent has a chance to muck or not muck is wrong.

Ice