This hand just came up in a omaha hi/lo game....by far my weakest game, but im trying to learn, what should i have done here?? I think ive made a bad play somewhere, so where exactly is it?? (also i checked the flop almost knowing that i was going to get a bet, and i was going to c/r..was that the right move??)

Seat 1: phillip_339 (2560 in chips)
Seat 2: Bull Fiddle (6519 in chips)
Seat 3: Bonnita68 (1030 in chips) is sitting out
Seat 4: Blaze1260 (1796 in chips)
Seat 5: chiefchief (6388 in chips)
Seat 6: AMARELO1 (6879 in chips) is sitting out
Seat 7: dkp54 (2002 in chips)
Seat 8: ttw40 (6375 in chips)
Seat 9: TRuDaaT (11254 in chips)
phillip_339: posts small blind 100
Bull Fiddle: posts big blind 200
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to phillip_339 [8c Js Jd Th]
Bonnita68: folds
Blaze1260: calls 200
chiefchief: calls 200
AMARELO1: folds
dkp54: raises 200 to 400
ttw40: calls 400
TRuDaaT: calls 400
phillip_339: calls 300
Bull Fiddle: calls 200
Blaze1260: calls 200
chiefchief: calls 200
*** FLOP *** [5c Jc 4d]
phillip_339: checks
Bull Fiddle: checks
Blaze1260: checks
chiefchief: checks
dkp54: bets 200
ttw40: raises 200 to 400
TRuDaaT: calls 400
phillip_339: raises 200 to 600
Bull Fiddle: folds
Bull Fiddle is sitting out
Blaze1260: folds
chiefchief: folds
dkp54: calls 400
ttw40: raises 200 to 800
Betting is capped
TRuDaaT: calls 400
phillip_339: calls 200
dkp54: calls 200
*** TURN *** [5c Jc 4d] [Kc]
phillip_339: checks
dkp54: checks
ttw40: bets 400
TRuDaaT: calls 400
phillip_339: calls 400
dkp54: raises 400 to 800
ttw40: raises 400 to 1200
TRuDaaT: calls 800
phillip_339: calls 800
dkp54: calls 2 and is all-in
*** RIVER *** [5c Jc 4d Kc] [3c]
phillip_339: bets 160 and is all-in
ttw40: calls 160
TRuDaaT: raises 240 to 400
ttw40: calls 240
*** SHOW DOWN ***
TRuDaaT: shows [Ks Ah 4s 2s] (HI: a straight, Ace to Five; LO: 5,4,3,2,A)
ttw40: mucks hand
TRuDaaT collected 240 from side pot-2
TRuDaaT collected 240 from side pot-2
phillip_339: mucks hand
TRuDaaT collected 837 from side pot-1
TRuDaaT collected 837 from side pot-1
dkp54: mucks hand
TRuDaaT collected 4604 from main pot
TRuDaaT collected 4604 from main pot
TRuDaaT said, "gg"
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 11362 Main pot 9208. Side pot-1 1674. Side pot-2 480. | Rake 0
Board [5c Jc 4d Kc 3c]
Seat 1: phillip_339 (small blind) mucked [8c Js Jd Th]
Seat 2: Bull Fiddle (big blind) folded on the Flop
Seat 3: Bonnita68 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 4: Blaze1260 folded on the Flop
Seat 5: chiefchief folded on the Flop
Seat 6: AMARELO1 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 7: dkp54 mucked [5s 3d 9d 9h]
Seat 8: ttw40 mucked [4h 3h As Kd]
Seat 9: TRuDaaT (button) showed [Ks Ah 4s 2s] and won (11362) with HI: a straight, Ace to Five; LO: 5,4,3,2,A

2 things you could do differently here.

1. Post your hand in a somewhat readable form
Copying and pasting a hand history is NOT a readable form.

2. Fold this trash preflop. Instantly.
Mid cards in high/low split are worthless.

this hand is really not all that playable in an omaha hi/low game and this is a good example. in order for you to make the nut straight the board would have to be 6-7-9 putting a low/split draw on the board in a hand where you have no low. think (if you like playing big cards) about this hand vs. 10-k-k-q. now if you make the nut straight (8-9-j) the only low draw is runner-runner and you have a much better chance of scooping. when the flush comes you are nearly drawing to 12 outs (if no one has trip kings). if one of those 12 outs doesn't come you are going to get scooped no matter how you look at it. after the flush you might consider folding (you have no low). when the low draw/ wheel completes at the river get out fast! now at bestyou get half of a pot in which you are a huge underdog (VERY VERY UNLIKELY). In fact, i can't imagine a situation (no matter my opponents) where i would put any more money into this pot. i think the fold on the turn may not be standard, i don't worry about that situation because i'm not calling a raise with these cards from the small blind. i'd be interested to hear others thoughts regarding a fold on the turn.

Assuming we somehow get stuck in this hand far enough
to even SEE the turn card, a fold there is insanely easy.

We have no low draw, no club flush, and even if the board
pairs, we're very easily screwed for all our chips by anybody
with a spare king and a few low cards.

This hand has trouble written all over it.

(as Aseem or Smash would say, Do You See Why?? )

hehe, i do see why...and i do appreciate the help. At the start i stated, this game is by far my weakest game. I think my real problem is that i bring too many tendancies from holdem into this game, and i concentrate far too much on the high pot. I was protecting the blinds, with a less than great hand, in the hope to hit a nice flop...which is something i would do in holdem, but a move that will very seldomly work out in omaha hi/lo.

When the flop came, i dont think i was getting out of the hand, as i had too much invested to fold on the turn, even though, i was pretty sure i was beat, i dont think i could have folded when the flush draw was made....but i shouldnt have been in there in the first place. Thank you for very informative posts.....and i think i have learnt my lesson, so thank you.
Also can someone give me a link to a good converter, so you guys dont have to put up with hand histories...thx.

Don't play hands like that in the first place in Omaha Hi/Lo, unless you are on the button/CO (and that is a maybe - table dependant). 8)

I feel as though it has been mentioned, but this is an insta-fold, especially with a raised pot. Don't care if you're in the BB, you're still folding this trashy hand to a raise. It's bad. Real bad.

Seriously though, it's bad.

oh yeah, the fold on the turn is really obvious now (i'm embarrased I didn't see it before). in an actual game i would make that fold 97 out of a hundred times (maybe more) but in an actual game i'm never playing these trash hands, let alone from the small blind. i think i've noticed that as hold em got more popular (along with blind stealing) eight-or-better players have started to defend their blinds which often gives them second to nut draws and creates profit for the pre-flop raiser (if it's not a complete steal). anyone else noticed this?

Navy, this pot was raised from MP, then
got 2 cold callers for 2 bets preflop.
It's hardly a blind steal move by the raiser.

The only way I could see playing this hand in
this spot were if the OP was a good enough player
to realize that the odds he was getting on his
money being that he was already in the SB
were pretty good ASSUMING he was a super-solid
O8B player and good enough to get away from
ANY hand but the nuts.

By the OP's own admission, I tend to think that's
not the case in this hand.


(and btw navy, would it kill you to separate your
posts into paragraphs and use the occasional
capital letter...lol...your posts just look like a big
box full of letters :wink: )

I think hands like JJxx and QQxx are worth playing only in an unraised pot. I don't play much limit, so my thinking comes from pot limit.

I think your flop play is okay, but you need to think of a flopped set as a drawing hand.

I think this is a fairly easy dump on the turn, you have to assume that the flush draw is out there, considering the flop play.

I actually lost my stack on a similar hand yesterday, so I learned my lesson.

Do you play much high/low split, as this hand happens to be?

JJxx and QQxx are garbage, unless your XX is something
like, oh, A2...

Thanks again guys, this has been really informative, and has helped me alot, i have learnt my lesson, and i think i've become a better omaha hi/lo player for it, so thanks guys.

But, i think you have to understand, to fold on the turn would have just been stupid, unless i knew i was drawing dead. This was a tourney, and there is no way im folding there, when i will only have 100 or so left, so i think the fold on the turn, like alot have said is just out of the question. I wouldnt have even had 1BB left, so im taking my chances on the turn, but on every other street i have played it wrong, and i can see that now, so thanks guys.

Phil, when we're talking about folding on
the turn, it's a hypothetical thing.

Given your chip stack, and the way you played
on the flop and before, you had no choice once
it got to the turn card.

What we're saying is that you shouldn't
have had to make that decision at the turn
anyways.

I'm glad you learned something from the discussion.
Hopefully we can all post more hands like
this and make everybody that reads the
forum into a better player.

Cheers

Ohhh, ok, i get it now. I yep, it would have been an easy fold on the turn had i had the chip stack to be able to do it, but what i didnt know, is that it should have been an easy fold on the flop and pre-flop...LOL

I definently value my sets too much in omaha hi/lo, yet probably not enough in omaha.

JJT8 rainbow is a bad hand to be sure and i'd have folded preflop.

But if you are playing against people who will cap each street with a nutlow 2nd weak pair and no flush redraw, then playing it can't be all bad.

-g

as I said, they are worth playing only in an unraised pot, not playing hands like that if you can get in cheaply is -EV.

You are playing this hand (which i like cause im dumb like that) out of the SB in a tournament for like 1/8 of your remaing chips. On the flop you played it right but so could a half retarded monkey so whatever. You may be pot comitted to see the river but since the river completed A2 you should have folded.

JJxx and QQxx are garbage, unless your XX is something
like, oh, A2...


as I said, they are worth playing only in an unraised pot, not playing hands like that if you can get in cheaply is -EV.


i don't think JJxx or QQxx is worth playing anywhere (typically) in omaha hi/low no matter where you play them from. again it depends on what xx is if you hand is QQJK (maybe QQJ10 instead) double suited i would play it from late position in an unraised pot but i'd be looking for a way to fold if the flop doesn't hit me.

if you have JJ67 and you are folding this hand in hi/low it is definately not -EV. since the only hand you can really scoop with is quad jacks.

sorry about the capitals, but i'll give a capital idea: fold this hand

This is terrible advice as you have indicated it, and it should be expanded on. Simply having an ace-2 in your hand does not make a hand playable. Annie Duke has a nice article about it on her website (I know that lot of people dislike her, but her advice is sound). For example, having :clubsq: :heartsq: :spadesa: :diamonds2: is not a hand that you can really play from just any position and expect it to be a positive EV. 8)

I wasn't the original poster to this, i just didn't know how to quote at the time. i, in fact, may not play your indicated hand from first position, but sometimes i might. if i'm at a table with a few sharks and fish who keep raising before the flop I'll probably fold from first position. if i'm at a table where a few fish keep drawing to the second nuts i'll probably play to the flop, but i'll fold (most of the time) unless I flop my low, a straight, or a queen.