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strategy
180 person tournament. Nowhere near the money. I lost a decent sized pot earlier on a total bluff and since then have had a few iffy looking hands at showdown. There's a guy (but not the one involved in this hand) openly discussing how much of a bluffer I am to the rest of the table.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t50 (9 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

BB (t1445)
UTG (t1150)
UTG+1 (t2715)
MP1 (t2065)
MP2 (t1058)
Hero (t2052)
CO (t1045)
Button (t1955)
SB (t2645)

Preflop: Hero is MP3 with Q:heart:, T:heart:.
4 folds, BB calls t100.

Flop: (t325) A:heart:, J:heart:, 8:heart: (2 players)
BB bets t50, BB calls t150.

Turn: (t725) 7:heart: (2 players)
BB checks, Hero checks.

River: (t725) Q:diamond: (2 players)
BB bets t750, BB calls t345 (All-In).

Final Pot: t3320

I don't like my raise on the end, but I'll leave that judgement up to you guys.
zimmer4141
Don't know why you'd check the turn. Make a smallish bet there (300 or so), and if he raises, then you can assume he has the K because the A and J are on board, and you have the Q and 10, and he wouldn't be making that raise with the 9h. No sense in checking and letting him bet first on the river, allowing yourself to lose more chips than you would had you bet/fold the turn.
strategy
QUOTE (Zimmer4141)
Don't know why you'd check the turn. Make a smallish bet there (300 or so), and if he raises, then you can assume he has the K because the A and J are on board, and you have the Q and 10, and he wouldn't be making that raise with the 9h. No sense in checking and letting him bet first on the river, allowing yourself to lose more chips than you would had you bet/fold the turn.


You know, I'm not really that used to playing with a loose-aggressive image. Yeah, I steal a whole lot, and I do a ton of raising, but people don't tend to accuse me of BSing all that often.

On the turn, I was thinking that I stood to lose less and make more depending on the situation if I checked and called what he bet on the river. That is the wrong line if your table image is LAG--you make way more if you fire out again on the turn. I don't think there's any way we don't pay off the Kh here without giving up a ton of potential profit.
zimmer4141
QUOTE (strategy)
QUOTE (Zimmer4141)
Don't know why you'd check the turn.  Make a smallish bet there (300 or so), and if he raises, then you can assume he has the K because the A and J are on board, and you have the Q and 10, and he wouldn't be making that raise with the 9h.  No sense in checking and letting him bet first on the river, allowing yourself to lose more chips than you would had you bet/fold the turn.


You know, I'm not really that used to playing with a loose-aggressive image. Yeah, I steal a whole lot, and I do a ton of raising, but people don't tend to accuse me of BSing all that often.

On the turn, I was thinking that I stood to lose less and make more depending on the situation if I checked and called what he bet on the river. That is the wrong line if your table image is LAG--you make way more if you fire out again on the turn. I don't think there's any way we don't pay off the Kh here without giving up a ton of potential profit.



I'm not exactly sure what you're saying here. Betting the turn will basically let you know exactly where you are in the hand. He won't raise with the 9h, so if he raises it has to be with the Kh. If you check and let him bet, then you are guessing as to if he has the K or he's bluffing on the river. I'd feel much better knowing where I stand than calling off most of my chips with the 2nd nut flush.
strategy
QUOTE (Zimmer4141)
I'm not exactly sure what you're saying here.  Betting the turn will basically let you know exactly where you are in the hand.  He won't raise with the 9h, so if he raises it has to be with the Kh.  If you check and let him bet, then you are guessing as to if he has the K or he's bluffing on the river.  I'd feel much better knowing where I stand than calling off most of my chips with the 2nd nut flush.


If we take our loose-aggressive image into consideration, we have to play this as though we have the nuts to maximize profit. A tiny heart will have to call us down here. A pair of aces might even call us. IMO, I'm not betting the turn for information, I'm betting it for value.
zimmer4141
I still think with a LAG image betting the turn is the right play. With the possibility that he called the flop bet with the nut flush draw, I think you have to try to define this hand on the turn. I don't think you should try and trap with this hand, and I don't care how LAG you have been, he is not continuing this hand without a heart. You should bet the turn. If you get raised, it's an easy fold. If he calls your turn bet, you can either value bet the river or check it down.
strategy
QUOTE (Zimmer4141)
I still think with a LAG image betting the turn is the right play. With the possibility that he called the flop bet with the nut flush draw, I think you have to try to define this hand on the turn. I don't think you should try and trap with this hand, and I don't care how LAG you have been, he is not continuing this hand without a heart. You should bet the turn. If you get raised, it's an easy fold. If he calls your turn bet, you can either value bet the river or check it down.


I agree with everything you said except for the possibility of ever letting go of this hand. I guess I just haven't been very clear--our image dictates that we play this aggressively, because he's going to be in there calling and raising with much worse than the nuts.
copernicus
My only thought in addition to the above is that the flop raise is a little thin.

Youre giving a naked Kh better than 4:1 to draw. Given your loose table image you are going to get even more calls than usual and really need to bet aggressively here.

There is no point betting on the turn, he folds with a small heart, and the check induced him to bet on the river, and the raise is fine because you can knock a player out without investing much more in the pot.
zimmer4141
QUOTE (copernicus)
My only thought in addition to the above is that the flop raise is a little thin.

Youre giving a naked Kh better than 4:1 to draw. Given your loose table image you are going to get even more calls than usual and really need to bet aggressively here.

There is no point betting on the turn, he folds with a small heart, and the check induced him to bet on the river, and the raise is fine because you can knock a player out without investing much more in the pot.


I guess I'm looking at this from the standpoint of losing the minimum if he has the Kh. I think he would definitely play it this way if he did have the Kh, but he could be bluffing as well. I guess I'd just rather take it down on the turn rather than having to guess as to what he has on the river.
strategy
QUOTE (Zimmer4141)
I guess I'm looking at this from the standpoint of losing the minimum if he has the Kh. I think he would definitely play it this way if he did have the Kh, but he could be bluffing as well. I guess I'd just rather take it down on the turn rather than having to guess as to what he has on the river.


Even though he did happen to have AxKh (lord only knows why he flat-called the raise on the flop) this time, playing the hand as though it's a sure thing that your opponent holds the Kh is not the optimal play. I admit, the fact that I posted it made it obvious that he did indeed have the Kh, but I would not have raised him if I knew it mid-hand.

After discussing this, I've become much less sure of the correct play on the turn. I checked because it felt right at the time. I felt like I was going to be paying off the Kh, but I would also get many other hands to bet into me on the river in addition to the nuts.
copernicus
QUOTE (Zimmer4141)
QUOTE (copernicus)
My only thought in addition to the above is that the flop raise is a little thin.

Youre giving a naked Kh better than 4:1 to draw. Given your loose table image you are going to get even more calls than usual and really need to bet aggressively here.

There is no point betting on the turn, he folds with a small heart, and the check induced him to bet on the river, and the raise is fine because you can knock a player out without investing much more in the pot.


I guess I'm looking at this from the standpoint of losing the minimum if he has the Kh. I think he would definitely play it this way if he did have the Kh, but he could be bluffing as well. I guess I'd just rather take it down on the turn rather than having to guess as to what he has on the river.


Thats why I like a larger flop raise. Even with an A (but not AK) he is going to have trouble calling a pot size bet with that board, and a call there is a warning flag to slow down. As it was, with an A and the Kh he is certainly calling. When the flop comes a H its still a tough laydown, but a lot easier to make than it was after the slow play.

As far as his lack of reraise on the flop, that is the right play, imo. With a draw to the nut flush and the threat of a made flush on board, he doesnt want to face a reraise from you. To repeat the refrain from other recent posts, and Sklansky's advice, you don't reopen the betting if you are going to hate a reraise, and he would definitely hate one with the nut flush draw.
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