1st full tilt razz is a fish tank. go for it.

2nd: in razz, say you have to bring in a king as your door card and have either a3,23,a2, hole in the hole, a 6 raises and everyone folds to you. if you call what cards do you and your opponent need to warrant a call or even bet?

or the other way around...say no one bets to your king door and you have 1 6 limp in, you catch good (8 or better) and he catches bad (9+) what door cards do you need to continue/bet figuring he has a legit hand underneath? is there a rule of thumb on 4th street for figuring your outs on 4th? 5th and 6th are a lot easier....

edit: assume the raiser/limper is very late to act

Unless you're absolutely sure he's stealing, i.e. it's one of the last low cards, don't call. It's just not worth it. It's probably not worth it even if he is stealing, with a king, but maybe with a jack or ten.

On the latter, I'd say play the player. If he ever limps with a good hand, then I'd call assuming I'm slightly behind, on average. If he doesn't, I call expecting if I get another good card I'm ahead.

Oh, and yes, FT's razz is nice and fishy. Especially the 8/16 table. And the 15/30 and 20/40 aren't too bad once you get good and can deal with ifishharder always being there. And when a pro sits down, they're looking to get rid of some money. ; )

*edit for the last paragraph

I'd say you need at least a T to call, and still only rarely. I'll do it if he's in steal position AND I'm near perfect in the hole AND my cards are live, but mostly the game's not nearly tough enough that you need to squeeze value from your bring-in hands. If it is, the best advice would be just to find a new game.

Regarding 4th, goose is spot on. You'll know which players can limp with good hands. If I'm not up against one of those players, I figure he could have limped with as good as a nine or eight, so I'll go cautiously especially with a brick showing. I tend to play 4th slower anyway; I'm not too concerned with squeezing value on 4th. I figure it has to be good for some extra big bets against the worse players.

Ok.....I'll be "the one" to bring it up......Why is this in general ?

Wouldn't anyone with any talent in Razz be reading in that section ?

Well, I'd have posted my reply in the stud section anyways. As would Garamond, I expect. So it didn't do much except tell people "Hey! There's this game called Razz, you should learn how to play it."

for you and silver goose...

1st both are pretty much how i feel, it has to be a monster in the hole, and a lot of high cards seen. and it has to be against a super aggresive player in a steal seat. i don't do this as a general rule as well, however at a loose table i gave it a shot against a "live one" and it payed off a few times. that's kinda why i am writing this.


to me, a brick is a brick, esp a 10 or higher. On 3rd, the chances are good you will wind up with a hand 9-10 high or better anyway, so i don't see why you need a "less-worse" card to continue.
i would call only to catch a baby and have him brick on 4th. otherwise the hand is his.

I guess my point is, i'm not showing down a 10 or jack high anyway, so why not see if i can catch good and he bad. plus what is a j up gonna do better than a king would--bearing you won't show down a j high anyway. Please correct me if i'm wrong, i'm just learning the game.

It's not a huge difference. But y'know, when you're starting behind, why start not have a slightly better up card?

Basically, yes, the jack or ten might be good, especially if they're stealing! If they're stealing, then they probably have a bad card down...which means your up card has a chance of playing a role. If they're not stealing, then you shouldn't call. That is, if they don't really steal, or they raised from early position with low cards after, etc...don't call without an eight up, which doesn't qualify as a high card.

Yeah. That's my opinion, and I'm sticking to it.

Maybe I'm too tight, but unless I know him to be a player who routinely tries to steal, I'm not playing the King real often. Jack or 10 are okay, but, I think the King leaves you kind of vulnerable.

But, that's probably me being too tight, it's probably the biggest leak I have with Razz, that, and responding to check raises from tricky opponents. :shock:

i agree. and i changed the OP. the point is he's trying to steal. all you need is to see him brick and you a baby. And i know this is against the grain, but online razz, like i said, is a fish tank.

i'll consider the calling the raise, only if a live table.
because i think even a king doesn' t matter since you can figure him for two bricks if he catches bad on 4th.

i don't know where a razz odds calculator is online (please post a link if you know! :-) ) but does any one know what the %'s are for a2k7 vs. j87q that is how i view the hand on 4th.

The thing is, this situation is exactly my point. If you have a jack up rather than a king up, then if you both brick on 5th, you're still way way ahead. Whereas with a king, he at least has a chance.

That's just my reasoning, but typically if they're on a straight steal, they've got one good card down and one bad card down. The likelihood that the bad card is a jack or worse is better than a king or worse.

That's my reasoning why a jack is better than a king, and can tip the balance towards trying to catch a stealer more often than with a king.

This is exactly right.

You're essentially playing with 6 cards to his 7.

Just because you know he has nothing doesn't mean your nothing is better. :wink: