Okay guys this hand happened about 2-3 months ago at the Trop.
Backround: I play pretty much on a daily basis there so I am very familiar with many of the players and they are also very familiar with me. It was a Friday night and we were playing 5/10 NL. I had been at the table for about 3 hours and had been playing very good poker. There were approximately 4-5 Regulars at the table and the rest were players that had been there for the 3 hours that I was there. The game was very loose as is typical for a friday night game at the Trop. Lots of pre-flop limpers with almost any two cards. The stacks of those that matter:
Me:$1400
Opponent: $1250
Opponent limps from EP for $10. 4-5 others also limp. I'm in SB with Ac Qc. I make it $75 to go. My intention was to mostly take down the pot there as I felt most of my opponents were limping in with weak hands and I know that the limping players respected my raises. The eventual opponent in the hand I had played many sessions with and knew him to be an extremely overaggressive player who in general made very sharp reads. I know that he knows me to be a very solid type of player and has often tried to make moves on me to push me off hands. In this particular hand he was the only caller pre-flop and something told me when he put the $75 in pre-flop that he was calling with a very speculative hand thinking that I had a very big hand and if he were to hit a flop he would be able to double up. I kept this in mind as we took the flop:
Kc Jc 2h
Obviously this was a very big flop for my hand and I felt that there was not a very good chance that my opponent got a piece of the flop but being as aggressive as he is he would bet the flop so I checked it to him. He thought for a few moments and checked behind.
Turn card: 8d Board Kc Jc 2h 8h Pot size $200
I felt it was time to make a bet at the pot so I bet $150. Opponent quickly raised to $325. At this point I believed that he had one pair, most likely
8's. I didn't think that simply calling and looking to hit on the river was an option. I felt I had most likely 18 outs ( 4 tens, 8 clubs, 3 A's and 3 Q's) so I decided to raise to $750 which was an amount that I felt looked like I wanted a call possibly with a hand like 3 J's or 3 K's. He thought for about 2 minutes total and finally decided to move the rest of his money in the pot, I of course called with the amount of money that was in the pot. I'll tell you what the result was after some feedback, but please note that this was a hand that involved a lot of multi-layered thinking and is not typical of the way that I would have played the hand against a regular opponent.
Full Version: big nl hand from a while ago... (long)
when you attach a disclaimer at the end to say your play was completely read dependant it makes critiquing the post kind of pointless.
That said, I don't like you making that re-raise. I take the cheap river card, and fold it if I miss it. I think you can find better spots to get all of your chips in the middle...
also explain the betting a little clearer, when you said he raised to 325 does that mean he actually raised 325 over your 150 raise, or that he raised an extra 175?
That said, I don't like you making that re-raise. I take the cheap river card, and fold it if I miss it. I think you can find better spots to get all of your chips in the middle...
also explain the betting a little clearer, when you said he raised to 325 does that mean he actually raised 325 over your 150 raise, or that he raised an extra 175?
Your point about the play being read dependent makes a lot of sense. The point of this hand I guess is not so much to say what the right play would be because I don't think in the end I actually played the hand incorrectly or that there is one way that is "right" but moreso a way for me to discuss the hand itself. The raise on the turn was to 325 so it was basically a minimum raise. My re-raise was to 750.
I didn't want to just call the raise because I felt my opponent had a very weak holding so even if I were to hit on the river I didn't feel I would make any more money. So the re-raise on the turn was either to take the pot down right then or get maximum value for my hand should he chose to commit the rest of his money. Also note that the reason I chose to make it 750 was because I was essentially betting all of my opponents chips while still making it seem like I want value for my hand with a call.
I didn't want to just call the raise because I felt my opponent had a very weak holding so even if I were to hit on the river I didn't feel I would make any more money. So the re-raise on the turn was either to take the pot down right then or get maximum value for my hand should he chose to commit the rest of his money. Also note that the reason I chose to make it 750 was because I was essentially betting all of my opponents chips while still making it seem like I want value for my hand with a call.
QUOTE (Tremomey)
Your point about the play being read dependent makes a lot of sense. The point of this hand I guess is not so much to say what the right play would be because I don't think in the end I actually played the hand incorrectly or that there is one way that is "right" but moreso a way for me to discuss the hand itself. The raise on the turn was to 325 so it was basically a minimum raise. My re-raise was to 750.
I didn't want to just call the raise because I felt my opponent had a very weak holding so even if I were to hit on the river I didn't feel I would make any more money. So the re-raise on the turn was either to take the pot down right then or get maximum value for my hand should he chose to commit the rest of his money. Also note that the reason I chose to make it 750 was because I was essentially betting all of my opponents chips while still making it seem like I want value for my hand with a call.
I didn't want to just call the raise because I felt my opponent had a very weak holding so even if I were to hit on the river I didn't feel I would make any more money. So the re-raise on the turn was either to take the pot down right then or get maximum value for my hand should he chose to commit the rest of his money. Also note that the reason I chose to make it 750 was because I was essentially betting all of my opponents chips while still making it seem like I want value for my hand with a call.
I'm confused, is that bet for value or fold equity, I d.
You're making it sound like he's going to fold a hand that will beat you and yet call with a lesser hand, when I think it would pretty much be the opposite. I dunno, I still want to see the river cheaply.
The way I saw it the bet was both for fold equity and for value if that makes sense. I knew that he had a hand that currently beat me but I felt that the majority of the time his hand was not going to be strong enough to call a re-raise. I also knew that if I were to just call and hit my hand that he would not call a river bet and that he would check behind me if I checked.
What I think it came down to was that I knew that he knew that I was a solid type of player who doesn't get out of line much. But I think he took it one step further and knew that I knew that he knew that he viewed me as a solid player that was playing into his aggressive style.
I also felt that on the turn all of my outs were clean so I wasn't too big of an underdog. I gauged the chance of him folding on the turn to be about 75 percent while my chance of winning should he call would be somewhere around 40 percent.
What I think it came down to was that I knew that he knew that I was a solid type of player who doesn't get out of line much. But I think he took it one step further and knew that I knew that he knew that he viewed me as a solid player that was playing into his aggressive style.
I also felt that on the turn all of my outs were clean so I wasn't too big of an underdog. I gauged the chance of him folding on the turn to be about 75 percent while my chance of winning should he call would be somewhere around 40 percent.
Bet the flop. You do realize that even if your opponent flopped any pair % wise you are barely ahead of him.
you say that you have a rockish table image
nice reraise on the turn, he's not gonna push w/ anything less than ak. huge fold equity, i'd make the same play each and everyday. calling would be the worse option here. i think he'll be able to push you off anything besides the flush or the straight on the river, and if you hit the flush, you probably wont get paid off big (as you said he makes sharp reads).
say you call and hit your ace or queen, do you bet or do you check. what if he pots it after your action, do you make that call? your turn call could lead to losing much more money on the river if you hit one of your "outs" only to have it be dirty
raise or fold, dont call
nice reraise on the turn, he's not gonna push w/ anything less than ak. huge fold equity, i'd make the same play each and everyday. calling would be the worse option here. i think he'll be able to push you off anything besides the flush or the straight on the river, and if you hit the flush, you probably wont get paid off big (as you said he makes sharp reads).
say you call and hit your ace or queen, do you bet or do you check. what if he pots it after your action, do you make that call? your turn call could lead to losing much more money on the river if you hit one of your "outs" only to have it be dirty
raise or fold, dont call
LOL.. i just was looking thru all the topics i've posted and found this one and it brought back memories... that guy totally owned me with 23o in that hand and I bricked river
Tre, I realize it's an old hand, but I prefer to c-bet/3-bet this flop. Also, if he was pushing this turn w/ 32o and these stack sizes, he's a retard.
QUOTE (Tremomey @ Friday, October 28th, 2005, 10:15 PM) 
Okay guys this hand happened about 2-3 months ago at the Trop.
Backround: I play pretty much on a daily basis there so I am very familiar with many of the players and they are also very familiar with me. It was a Friday night and we were playing 5/10 NL. I had been at the table for about 3 hours and had been playing very good poker. There were approximately 4-5 Regulars at the table and the rest were players that had been there for the 3 hours that I was there. The game was very loose as is typical for a friday night game at the Trop. Lots of pre-flop limpers with almost any two cards. The stacks of those that matter:
Me:$1400
Opponent: $1250
Opponent limps from EP for $10. 4-5 others also limp. I'm in SB with Ac Qc. I make it $75 to go. My intention was to mostly take down the pot there as I felt most of my opponents were limping in with weak hands and I know that the limping players respected my raises. The eventual opponent in the hand I had played many sessions with and knew him to be an extremely overaggressive player who in general made very sharp reads. I know that he knows me to be a very solid type of player and has often tried to make moves on me to push me off hands. In this particular hand he was the only caller pre-flop and something told me when he put the $75 in pre-flop that he was calling with a very speculative hand thinking that I had a very big hand and if he were to hit a flop he would be able to double up. I kept this in mind as we took the flop:
Kc Jc 2h
Obviously this was a very big flop for my hand and I felt that there was not a very good chance that my opponent got a piece of the flop but being as aggressive as he is he would bet the flop so I checked it to him. He thought for a few moments and checked behind.
Turn card: 8d Board Kc Jc 2h 8h Pot size $200
I felt it was time to make a bet at the pot so I bet $150. Opponent quickly raised to $325. At this point I believed that he had one pair, most likely
8's. I didn't think that simply calling and looking to hit on the river was an option. I felt I had most likely 18 outs ( 4 tens, 8 clubs, 3 A's and 3 Q's) so I decided to raise to $750 which was an amount that I felt looked like I wanted a call possibly with a hand like 3 J's or 3 K's. He thought for about 2 minutes total and finally decided to move the rest of his money in the pot, I of course called with the amount of money that was in the pot. I'll tell you what the result was after some feedback, but please note that this was a hand that involved a lot of multi-layered thinking and is not typical of the way that I would have played the hand against a regular opponent.
Backround: I play pretty much on a daily basis there so I am very familiar with many of the players and they are also very familiar with me. It was a Friday night and we were playing 5/10 NL. I had been at the table for about 3 hours and had been playing very good poker. There were approximately 4-5 Regulars at the table and the rest were players that had been there for the 3 hours that I was there. The game was very loose as is typical for a friday night game at the Trop. Lots of pre-flop limpers with almost any two cards. The stacks of those that matter:
Me:$1400
Opponent: $1250
Opponent limps from EP for $10. 4-5 others also limp. I'm in SB with Ac Qc. I make it $75 to go. My intention was to mostly take down the pot there as I felt most of my opponents were limping in with weak hands and I know that the limping players respected my raises. The eventual opponent in the hand I had played many sessions with and knew him to be an extremely overaggressive player who in general made very sharp reads. I know that he knows me to be a very solid type of player and has often tried to make moves on me to push me off hands. In this particular hand he was the only caller pre-flop and something told me when he put the $75 in pre-flop that he was calling with a very speculative hand thinking that I had a very big hand and if he were to hit a flop he would be able to double up. I kept this in mind as we took the flop:
Kc Jc 2h
Obviously this was a very big flop for my hand and I felt that there was not a very good chance that my opponent got a piece of the flop but being as aggressive as he is he would bet the flop so I checked it to him. He thought for a few moments and checked behind.
Turn card: 8d Board Kc Jc 2h 8h Pot size $200
I felt it was time to make a bet at the pot so I bet $150. Opponent quickly raised to $325. At this point I believed that he had one pair, most likely
8's. I didn't think that simply calling and looking to hit on the river was an option. I felt I had most likely 18 outs ( 4 tens, 8 clubs, 3 A's and 3 Q's) so I decided to raise to $750 which was an amount that I felt looked like I wanted a call possibly with a hand like 3 J's or 3 K's. He thought for about 2 minutes total and finally decided to move the rest of his money in the pot, I of course called with the amount of money that was in the pot. I'll tell you what the result was after some feedback, but please note that this was a hand that involved a lot of multi-layered thinking and is not typical of the way that I would have played the hand against a regular opponent.
I don't like speculating with one card to come.
Don't check that flop. I probably overbet the pot on the flop with that kind of opponent.
He has to be putting you on AK.
He does this with a set, KJ or something.
The only hand he does this where he's stealing outs is 9cTc, and we're ahead of that.
QUOTE (Tremomey @ Monday, January 28th, 2008, 2:56 PM)
LOL.. i just was looking thru all the topics i've posted and found this one and it brought back memories... that guy totally owned me with 23o in that hand and I bricked river
LOL he saw into your soul
QUOTE (CobaltBlue @ Monday, January 28th, 2008, 8:52 PM)
Also, if he was pushing this turn w/ 32o and these stack sizes, he's a retard.
++ OMG.....yes indeed.
QUOTE (CobaltBlue @ Monday, January 28th, 2008, 8:52 PM)
Tre, I realize it's an old hand, but I prefer to c-bet/3-bet this flop. Also, if he was pushing this turn w/ 32o and these stack sizes, he's a retard.
Agree 100%.. also no way in hell i should have been playing in this game at that point in my life. It's fun to look back in old threads and see how you were thinking at the time.. maybe I should go back to the way I used to think.. or just run better haha
QUOTE (CobaltBlue @ Monday, January 28th, 2008, 8:52 PM)
Tre, I realize it's an old hand, but I prefer to c-bet/3-bet this flop. Also, if he was pushing this turn w/ 32o and these stack sizes, he's a retard.
Also agree on that too.. haha i remember after the dealer (who was a friend of mine) put out the river he said i have a pair.. i said thats good.. he turned over his hand.. i looked at it once.. then looked at it again and gasped a bit and my friend the dealer said you can't beat two's!?!?!?! I just shook my head and sulked away.. haha good times
Tre, what games/tournaments are you playing now? I remember reading your blog when you updated it awhile back, it was good.
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