OK, this hand seems like a prime example of where the tighter philosophy and my standard looser, more aggressive approach would probably differ. As I mentioned before, I'm trying to assimilate some of the ideas posters here have, so I'd really appreciate some serious comments on this hand.
To summarize, I flop nut low with counterfeit protection and nut heart and ass-end straight draws for potential high hands. But the board has an obvious higher straight that is probably in the hand of Villain given his flop raise (this player is not terrific, but not terribly weak). Normally, I'd go for the reraise to get everything in on the flop. I know I risk getting quartered by A2 with the made straight, but if the guy only has the straight (as it seems he did here) then I miss a chance at a huge freeroll.
Instead of getting everything in on the flop here, I just called... mainly to get the guy behind me to hopefully come along (he didn't), but also out of caution so that I wouldn't be locked into getting quartered.
But my question is, how would you tighter players (Jackoff and Smash, others) approach the hand? I'm not going to fold the turn if the heart doesn't come, right? So why not just get everything in on the flop? Also, I obviously should've check-raised on the turn. Stupid lead, I admit. But I'm curious about the flop action mainly.
$400 PL Omaha Hi/Lo
Seat 1 is the button
Total number of players : 5
Seat 1: Villain ( $353.35 )
Seat 9: Folder ( $361.05 )
Seat 10: Folder ( $260.80 )
Seat 2: Hero ( $725.65 )
Seat 8: Broke ( $0 )
Hero posts small blind [$2].
Folder posts big blind [$4].
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to Hero [ Ah 6c 3h 2s ]
Folder folds.
Villain calls [$4].
Hero raises [$6].
Broke has left the table.
Folder calls [$4].
Villain calls [$4].
** Dealing Flop ** [ 8h, 5s, 7h ]
Hero bets [$22.80].
Folder calls [$22.80].
Villain raises [$114].
Hero calls [$91.20].
Folder folds.
** Dealing Turn ** [ Kh ]
Hero bets [$272.80].
Villain: f uuccckin heart
Villainfolds.
Hero does not show cards.
Hero wins $545.60
Full Version: party $400 plo8 hand: tight vs. aggressive
$400 PL Omaha Hi/Lo
Seat 1 is the button
Total number of players : 5
Seat 1: Villain ( $353.35 )
Seat 9: Folder ( $361.05 )
Seat 10: Folder ( $260.80 )
Seat 2: Hero ( $725.65 )
Seat 8: Broke ( $0 )
Hero posts small blind [$2].
Folder posts big blind [$4].
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to Hero [ Ah 6c 3h 2s ]
Folder folds.
Villain calls [$4].
Hero raises [$6].
Broke has left the table.
Folder calls [$4].
Villain calls [$4].
** Dealing Flop ** [ 8h, 5s, 7h ]
Hero bets [$22.80].
Folder calls [$22.80].
Villain raises [$114].
Hero calls [$91.20].
Folder folds.
I get as much in as I can here out of position. In position I call.
I might check the turn here if I had played this way, depending on how agressive the other player is. I'm not too worried about 88A2 if he's halway competenet and even most tight players would be this turn if checked to with the straght and the nut low, so I think I get more money checking than betting most of the time.
You had a read and I didn't thouh.
I don't think this is a good example of a LAGish hand aside from being out of position for a marginal raise.
good luck.
Seat 1 is the button
Total number of players : 5
Seat 1: Villain ( $353.35 )
Seat 9: Folder ( $361.05 )
Seat 10: Folder ( $260.80 )
Seat 2: Hero ( $725.65 )
Seat 8: Broke ( $0 )
Hero posts small blind [$2].
Folder posts big blind [$4].
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to Hero [ Ah 6c 3h 2s ]
Folder folds.
Villain calls [$4].
Hero raises [$6].
Broke has left the table.
Folder calls [$4].
Villain calls [$4].
** Dealing Flop ** [ 8h, 5s, 7h ]
Hero bets [$22.80].
Folder calls [$22.80].
Villain raises [$114].
Hero calls [$91.20].
Folder folds.
I get as much in as I can here out of position. In position I call.
I might check the turn here if I had played this way, depending on how agressive the other player is. I'm not too worried about 88A2 if he's halway competenet and even most tight players would be this turn if checked to with the straght and the nut low, so I think I get more money checking than betting most of the time.
You had a read and I didn't thouh.
I don't think this is a good example of a LAGish hand aside from being out of position for a marginal raise.
good luck.
With the made low and the flush draw I'd reraise the flop, but then again I play looser than some of the people on here.
Also, the way it was played, why did you bet the turn? Assuming he has a straight, you don't have much to be afraid of, so a check isn't going to cost you anything, so it's a prime opportunity to check raise, with the fallback that giving a free card probably won't hurt you.
Also, the way it was played, why did you bet the turn? Assuming he has a straight, you don't have much to be afraid of, so a check isn't going to cost you anything, so it's a prime opportunity to check raise, with the fallback that giving a free card probably won't hurt you.
QUOTE (dank773)
With the made low and the flush draw I'd reraise the flop, but then again I play looser than some of the people on here.
Also, the way it was played, why did you bet the turn? Assuming he has a straight, you don't have much to be afraid of, so a check isn't going to cost you anything, so it's a prime opportunity to check raise, with the fallback that giving a free card probably won't hurt you.
Also, the way it was played, why did you bet the turn? Assuming he has a straight, you don't have much to be afraid of, so a check isn't going to cost you anything, so it's a prime opportunity to check raise, with the fallback that giving a free card probably won't hurt you.
I panicked. Stupid play. Yes.
I can't really see myself not re-raising the flop here. I understand your rationale hoping to bring Folder along for the ride but:
If he is going to call 80 more, he'll call 180 more, and
If he has A2 with a weaker flush (i.e 2 of your outs) and calls along, that is not good for you at this stage.
If he is going to call 80 more, he'll call 180 more, and
If he has A2 with a weaker flush (i.e 2 of your outs) and calls along, that is not good for you at this stage.
The way I look at it is, I tried to lay trap to get both my opponents' money in, just because both of them walk away from the trap it won't discourage me partly due to my incorrect turn play (this is player-dependent, pushing on the turn could be the right play against some others). The point is, what can I utilize the current play for the later rounds? Something I can get from this hand is, either my villain can be bluffed when the situations come up, or, my opponent is abusing his position.
Now about this hand. At the full table, I will do exactly the same on the flop as you do, trying to set trap and get more money in.
At the 4-handed table, I won't give credit to my villain for having double nuts (straight/set + nut low), a lot of players will pot you back with as little as two pairs plus little lows like A3 when they're in position at very short-handed game because of the nature of aggression plays at SH tables. Even if he does have double nuts, given that condition, I have 6 outs to counterfeit his low, I've got 8 (discounting 5h) outs for the nut high. That's good enough for me to reraise. But again, I don't really mind the call here, the last thing we want is to be predictable.
(ps., It's probably easy to play against Wintermute live, his eyes may be popping out when he sees the flush on the turn,
)
Now about this hand. At the full table, I will do exactly the same on the flop as you do, trying to set trap and get more money in.
At the 4-handed table, I won't give credit to my villain for having double nuts (straight/set + nut low), a lot of players will pot you back with as little as two pairs plus little lows like A3 when they're in position at very short-handed game because of the nature of aggression plays at SH tables. Even if he does have double nuts, given that condition, I have 6 outs to counterfeit his low, I've got 8 (discounting 5h) outs for the nut high. That's good enough for me to reraise. But again, I don't really mind the call here, the last thing we want is to be predictable.
(ps., It's probably easy to play against Wintermute live, his eyes may be popping out when he sees the flush on the turn,
)
I woulda just called as you did, however, at the risk of losing 3/4 of the hand on the river (if the board paired and he Villain had a set and A2), i would have checked the turn after getting the flush.
If Villian did in fact have A2, he probably would have tried to bully you out with a pot bet, and if he didnt bet on the turn, you would probably have a good read on his hand (he doesnt have A2). meaning worst case, if he hit a boat on the river youd get half the pot and if he hit something less, he might have called a river bet by you.
the king of hearts was a scare card for him. by letting the river card play, you risk losing the hand by a boat, but at the same time, you get a solid read on his low situation and get your flush possibility a little further back in his mind.
I am a slow player when i know im definitely getting the whole low or high. I hope this makes sense and isnt just a waste of time.
If Villian did in fact have A2, he probably would have tried to bully you out with a pot bet, and if he didnt bet on the turn, you would probably have a good read on his hand (he doesnt have A2). meaning worst case, if he hit a boat on the river youd get half the pot and if he hit something less, he might have called a river bet by you.
the king of hearts was a scare card for him. by letting the river card play, you risk losing the hand by a boat, but at the same time, you get a solid read on his low situation and get your flush possibility a little further back in his mind.
I am a slow player when i know im definitely getting the whole low or high. I hope this makes sense and isnt just a waste of time.
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