I posted this hand in the general forum and was called an idiot for it, which I wasn't surprised by. I wanted to post it here since the responses are almost always constructive and there are so many good players here. I don't consider myself a great player and can definitely take the criticism.

I left the results of the hand out, although I'm sure some of you have seen them already.

I'll post the hand with my thought-process and reads.

Texas Hold'em $10-$10 NL (real money), #1,380,222,276
Table wanita1234's HE, 19 Oct 2005 11:35 PM ET

Seat 1: Satchel7 ($847 in chips)
Seat 7: natural1 x ($800 in chips)
Seat 8: Naismith ($1,023.85 in chips)
Seat 9: B_O_K_E ($2,819 in chips)
Seat 10: JuanLuckyGuy ($1,209 in chips)

ANTES/BLINDS
natural1 x posts blind ($5), Naismith posts blind ($10).

****I am dealt the Kc-Qc on the BB****

PRE-FLOP
B_O_K_E bets $30, JuanLuckyGuy calls $30, Satchel7 folds, natural1 x calls $25, Naismith calls $20.

****BOKE had raised the last three times UTG showing J7d, 44 and 56h. He made a continuation bet each time and checked the turn twice when he missed and bet the other time when he hit his set on the turn. JuanLuckyGuy is a solid player that I've played with a lot and have the best read on. His range of calling hands here are any pair (22-88), A10suited, AJ and KQ. He would re-raise with 99-AA and with AQ or AK and would muck all other hands. Natural is a wild player that doesn't seem to have a clue how to play other than going all in on the river. He went all in on pretty much every river when the pot was big. He showed ace-high a bunch of times and once showed the nuts. He had 3k when I arrived and had bluffed most of it away.****

FLOP [board cards 8C,7S,JH ]
natural1 x checks, Naismith checks, B_O_K_E bets $50, JuanLuckyGuy calls $50, natural1 x calls $50, Naismith calls $50.

****I check here for the obvious reasons. I intend to call if the other two fold and feel BOKE out on the turn (since he had checked the turn each time he missed). If either guy re-raised, I would've folded. Instead, Juan calls which tells me he probably has a J. He wouldn't call with an underpair or middle pair or to try to set up a bluff. I put him on AJ here since that fits in the best with his call-a-raise preflop hand range. Natural calls here because he calls in every pot he contends when there's a flop bet. He could have literally anything.

That said, I believe there's a good chance both of my cards put me in the lead if I hit and the bet is a relatively small 5BB into a 27BB pot. I realize there's a chance either of the unpredictable guys could have Kx or Qx that two-pairs and gets me in trouble and I'm trusting my ability to get away from it if that happens. Also, any club gives me a flush draw and a ten gives me straight outs, although probably eliminates my KQ outs. Reasoning that, I call.****

TURN [board cards 8C,7S,JH,AH ]
natural1 x checks, Naismith checks, B_O_K_E checks, JuanLuckyGuy bets $75, natural1 x calls $75, Naismith calls $75, B_O_K_E calls $75.

****That was not the card I wanted and I'm willing to fold to a big bet. BOKE checks as I figured he would and Juan bets, pretty much guaranteeing that he has AJ. He would either check-call or check-fold anything less than top pair and would probably be content with checking down A10. He only bets 75 and after Natural calls, it's 75 into a pot that's nearing 500 dollars. Juan knows I'm capable of making a play on the river and will call a big bet if I hit my straight with his top two and might even play back at me. Plus, there's a chance Natural will do his all in bit, in which case my implied odds are extremely high. BOKE calling is both a surprise and a disaster since I'm sure he's drawing to something and I put him on hearts. He likes to raise up with suited cards and a backdoor flush draw seems possible based on how this has played out. If he's on hearts, of course, that kills one of my tens.****


Anyhow, I think my logic is pretty sound and I don't think this is horribly played. On the other hand, I don't have a hard time believing that I don't know what I'm talking about and I'm willing to listen. I'm definitely open to criticism and would appreciate hearing the flaws in my logic, though, so I can work on getting better.

Peace,
Jay

I'm no NL specialist, but I do have one questions...



Do you really want to call on the flop, putting yourself in the position to have to pay even more to see the river. Someone already has at least one pair, someone already has a straight draw...I just feel like you're asking for trouble by calling here.

But I don't hate how this hand was played out.

Basically you're overplaying KQ bigtime. On this flop its unlikely you still have 6 clean outs so calling is only going to get you into trouble. So its a loose flop call

On the turn you're calling with what you admit to being most likely 3 outs. It is possible that you have some decent implied odds But with 78J out there if a 10 hits on the river unless someone has a 9 I really don't see how much you're gonna make.

Sounds like you managed to find a table filled with incredibly bad players.

Fold the flop. Overs are often dirty (either because of someone with two pair, or being outkicked), and you won't know when.

If you make it to the turn though, you're drawing to the nut straight and you've got some tool at your table pushing all in on most rivers - you can definitely call a bet of 1/5th the pot, if your stack is a reasonable size.
You may be drawing to only 3 cards, but probably 4 given that it's a BD flush. If you get heavy action from the non-maniac players at the river and it's a heart that gives you the straight, dont be suprised when you either call down with a second best hand or fold a winner.



That's really what makes his straight so good. There are a bunch of calls on the flop, and the only reasonable draws are inside straight draws, one of which is completed by the 10. If anyone has the 9 and you hit one of the 3 safe straight cards, you're getting paid their entire stack almost every time.

Thanks for all the responses.

Here's my question: Am I really overplaying KQ suited in a loose shorthanded game in a hand with two extremely loose players and one guy who I'm relatively certain has neither a king or a queen? I'm not asking for advice and then disagreeing with it. I'm really uncertain. My thinking (as stated above) was that my K or Q hitting would probably be good and for a cheap price (5BBs in a 27BB pot).

Of course, there's the chance that the preflop raiser did it with AK or AA or JJ or whatever, but shouldn't I be discounting the possibility of that due to the constant raising from UTG with mediocre hands (i.e. J7d, 56h, 44)? I know both other guys would've reraised with AK, AQ or big pairs and that Natural would've re-raised with even less...like A10 suited.

As for the three outs on the river, I actually figured I had four outs until the preflop raiser surprised me with a call. He was the one I gave credit for a flush draw, but it was after I had already called. I really thought he'd fold. Let's put it this way. Had he folded and the river come the 10h, I would've called/bet like I had the nuts.



You're right, I am setting myself up to spend more money if I pick up a draw. But at that point, isn't it just a game of odds (like it ended up being)? If I call the flop and the turn is, say, the 3c, I'm calling off more money only if I'm getting good odds, right? If the club hits the turn and, say, one of them goes all in, I fold having lost 5 extra blinds and nothing more. As it turned out, when I picked up the straight draw, I was risking 7.5BBs and no more since there's no card I'm putting my money in on the river except the 10.

Again, I'm not trying to debate anyone. I'm just trying to explain my mindset and how I understand the situation.

I'm going to include the link to my original post which has the results for the curious.

Peace,
Jay

http://www.fullcontactpoker.com/poker-foru...p=488726#488726

I was pretty certain pairing my K or Q wouldn't have me outkicked unless UTG actually had AK or AQ since the other two would've definitely re-raised with AK or AQ. But you're definitely right that a K or Q could've gotten me in trouble against K7, K8 or KJ, all of which the other two could've had (although I saw the maniac re-raise all in twice with KJ).

Had a heart come on the river, I probably would've folded to a huge bet from the maniac, mainly because I thought the preflop raiser had the flush draw. Had it been just me and the maniac, I would've called a big bet. Had it been me and the solid-tight Juan, I would've raised with the 10h since I was fairly certain he had AJ.

Thanks for the response.

Jay

You're a fish.

fine.

why would people call you a fish about this hand??

aseem