...is that a wet dream for you, or a nightmare for you?

I say if you don't have an erection thinking about the title line of this post, then you don't like money and you suck at poker.

Anyway...

I'm pretty sure I played this about as perfectly as I could have hoped to under the circumstances... but I need reassuring and/or criticism.

We're going to go with the patented TJ "Stream of Consciousness Strategy Post" where I let you know what I'm thinking on each street. Also helps put stuff into perspective. Feel free to let me know what I SHOULD be thinking if I'm not thinking right.

Party Poker 0.50/1 Hold'em (9 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Preflop: Hero is BB with K:heart:, K:club:.

Kings in the blind... hope LP raises so I can iso out the limpers...

UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, 1 fold,

Good...

1 fold,

Here we go... Man I hate bad position.

UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, MP3 caps, Button folds, Hero calls, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls.

And they ALL CALL 3. Awesome. Good for my hand... technically. EV (and variance) both go up as more players enter the pot when I have a premium hand... so we'll see. Initial raiser caps and it's game on. Isn't .50/1 fun? You just don't see this stuff at 4/8 or whatever.

Flop: (22.50 SB) 5:spade:, 3:spade:, 7:diamond: (5 players)

I have no spades and I"m first to act. The plan for now is to try and keep it 1 or 2 small bets on the flop, and go crazy on the turn. I see a whole lot of nasty set cards, and I'm spadeless.

Hero checks, UTG bets,

Now it's 3 cold to me. I'm not a fan of check/calling 3-cold just in a general sort of way, so I'm thinkin' *maybe* if I check/cap this I can knock some players out.

Hero caps, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, MP3 calls.

Nope. I don't really think check/calling is appreciably better though.

Turn: (21.25 BB) 4:spade: (5 players)

Awful card here. 21 BB pot on the turn though... so I'm not too keen on folding, even though I can easily be drawing completely dead here.

Hero checks, UTG checks, UTG+1 checks, MP1 checks, MP3 bets,

I really hope I'm not about to price myself in to make a weak call here.

Hero calls, UTG calls, UTG+1 folds, MP1 calls.

Good... I guess.

River: (25.25 BB) 3:heart: (4 players)
Hero checks, UTG bets, MP1 calls, MP3 calls, Hero calls.

Hypothetically, do I call if it's two to me on the river? I'm thinking not so much... but 29 BB...

Final Pot: 29.25 BB

-sigh-

Input as always much appreciated.

You played it good.

Stop Bragging

actually, i don't think he played it good.

remember the "two overpairs" section in SSHE?

you have a hand that's pretty similar to the 10-10 hand, except that less overcards can come.

the flop on the cap is terrible. you think it's for value? i'd much prefer calling the three cold and seeing if someone else caps behind me--that gives me a much better sense of where i am and puts in the same money.

more importantly, if no one caps, it sets me up for a beautiful checkraise of MP3 (the three-bettor, directly on your right) on *good* turn cards.

since the turn sucked, i think calling down was okay.

the turn decision is really close, though. i'd hate folding in that spot in that 21 BB pot, but jeez... four-straight, three-flush, all-rag board. i think a really interesting situation is if you call and one of the players behind you checkraises. if MP3 three-bets, i think it's a safe fold to two cold, but what if he just calls? are you calling down?

aseem

Limit sux.
You can't protect your hand
Get out of the kiddie pool.

I think that's the closest part of the hand.

I was worried that with 3457 on board, 4-handed, with 3 spades, and me NOT having the king of spades...

That means I have a whopping 2 king outs, one of them dirty, and neither to the nut boat... to make an unsafe call on the turn... with all kinds of set cards, 77, and two spades being ahead with me drawing dead against many of them.

And then I said fuck it... I got kings and I don't care what these ass-clowns do, I'm seeing a god damned river for 1 bet in this pot.

I'd be shocked if I win, but I have to win a shockingly few amount of times to call profitably... and it's kings dammit.

For what it's worth, capped me preflop and the bettor on the turn and river had quadzilla 3's.

.50/1.00 is great, isn't it. People are always capping preflop, or coldcalling 3 or 4 bets with crap like 33. I love it. I don't know if I want to move up... sw.

The variance will get to ya, but all in all, it's a pretty funny limit.

Also, once you made it to the turn, calling down is your only option. Folding would be disasterous. I could see people jamming here with nothing more than TPTK, or even a pair of 8s, and I play at UB, not the fishtank that is Party.

Zach

Hmm...I disagree...

I'd much rather have a suited-connector type
of hand in a 5-way capped pot then I would a
pair of kings.

There is almost no way of improving on your
kings without hitting your set.

Logic dictates that with 4 other players willing
to play in a capped pot, there are at least a few decent
hands out the against you, most of which have
several different ways to outdraw you.

The problem with a big pair in a pot like this
is that it's tough to get away from if the board
ends up being all undercards.

At least with a suited connector type of hand
it's easy to get away from, you either hit the flop
or you don't.

I'm all for losing the minimum and winning the
maximum in these spots.

Not quite so much for me.

I learned from Ed Miller that as the number of players enter the pot while you have a big pair, your EV INCREASES (as does variance, obviously).

But think about what that means. We all know premium pairs are monsters against almost all other hands heads up. Against two random cards, kings are waaaay ahead, and against undercards and underpairs, kings are waaaay ahead. You're only *kind of* in trouble against A-x, and you're still 70/30 ahead preflop. People that say they love to crack KK with 78s are pretty dumb if they don't mind getting it all in preflop.

But as more players enter the hand, you might think that a vulnerable hand like kings WEAKENS. But actually, your average advantage over your opponents INcreases as more players enter the hand, because the undercards are killing each others' outs. And, as more players enter the pot, it increases the chances of a premium pair standing up unimproved.

It took me a long time to learn that and an even longer time to understand and believe it.

People that get scared of being outdrawn in a 6-way capped pot when they can't make people fold aren't thinking correctly. I personally WANT to be in huge pots with hands where I'm way ahead.

If y'all don't understand then think about it. If you still don't, ask me what you don't understand, because it's important to comprehend this.

Which, more often than not, won't be necessary.



Which, more often than not, won't happen. Especially because they usually won't get to see five cards.



Unless a set is obvious, you won't want to get away from an uncoordinated board.



It's even easier to get away from 72. Doesn't mean it's my favorite multiway hand.



You'll win more here in the long term with KK 5-handed than with a suited connector.

Don't forget though, it's limit we're talking about. There is no
"getting it all in preflop"

Just want to clarify though...I'm not disagreeing that the
Kings are a good hand to have here, I'm just saying that
when they DO lose, it's going to cost you a lot of bets.

I've run a few different combinations through the
calculator at cardplayer.com and found that the
pocket kings are usually between a 30-35% favourite
depending on the cards I give to the other 4 players.

A 1/3 chance to win a 5 way pot is obviously +ev
over the long run, but I just see this as one of those
hands where it's gonna cost a lot of bets when you're
on the short end of it.

well, obviously kinsg still have an equity edge.

but, bdc30 still has a point that's often overlooked.

again, this game isn't about winnings hands, it's about winning money.

it's easy to say kings win more money with more people in the pot because your equitye dge is bigger, etc. but this looks only at preflop equity!

it's really tough to say whether kings in fact DO make more money with more people. postflop playability is a big issue.

with more people, how often do you win with kings without hitting a set? how does the money you earn unimproved compare to the money you lose? do you win more money proportionally than you lose unimproved, compared to the number of people in the pot? etc.

those questions aren't easily answered at all.

aseem

Those are interesting questions, but germane to the point. KK has higher equity than middle suited connectors in just about any situation. I'm sure you could contrive a situation where it's not the case, but it's by far the exception. I'd rather have KK than 7-8 suited in ANY game. I'd be a fool not to.

lol, you missed my whole point.

equity doesn't always correlate directly to MONEY earned on average.

it's hard to say whether kings earn more MONEY or 87s does. strong arguments can be made for both.

aseem

Earns more money...Hmm...you mean you are wondering if 78s has higher EV multiway than KK? I will filter my PT stats tonight for 4+ on the flop and see what hands have highest EV for me. My DB is not a huge sample, but I'll be surprised if suited connectors rise to the top.

rog, there is no point in you doing that if your database isn't big enough.

do you see why? :wink:

aseem

Lol...yes. Yes, I do see why. I'm going to do it anyway for 3 reasons.

1) I may have enough hands to be meaningfull. I have 30k hands at .5/1, and a large number of them could very well be 4+ on the flop.

2) Low resolution data is better than no data at all, and I am quite curious now.

3) If I dont have a large number of 4+ to the flop at Party .5/1, I need to review my table selection.

How about you filter your numbers and tell us how it turns out? I'm sure you have a whole pile more hands than I do.

The trick is that at the vast majority of tables where you see a 5-way cap pre-flop people are playing really loose. I'd be willing to bet that if you look at 5-way capped hands at party .5/1 you'd find 2 or 3 hands that you'd never play way more than half of them. It's possible that that many people get a hand at once but way more likely that people are playing junk.

Yes, implicit collusion is real but remember that the tipping point is something like 12 people in pre-flop. And I NEVER see that on party.

Can I ask why we've gotten so caught up in
the hand 7 8 suited for some of thie villains?

Look at it objectively. Unless all 4 of these guys
are complete donkeys, you have to figure at least
TWO of them for a half decent hand, something
way better than 7 8 that's for sure.

When I ran the calculations through the cardplayer
calculator, I figured at least 1 villain for a suited
ace/paint (AQ or AJ likely) and at least one other
villain for a hand like J 10 suited.

I'd rather have both of those hands in a multi-way
capped pot then the 7 8 you guys keep talking about.

Win more hands, yes. Win more money?? I bet that number
is closer than you think...

[quote="bdc30"][quote=Rokuban][quote=bdc30]
There is almost no way of improving on your
kings without hitting your set.[/quote]

Which, more often than not, won't be necessary.

So you figure in a 5-way pot where now every
draw is getting huge odds to call, a single pair
will hold up as the winner "more often than not"?[/quote]

Yes. More over, not all of those 5 hands are 78s type drawing hands. Some of them are just already dominated hands.

[quote]Which, more often than not, won't happen. Especially because they usually won't get to see five cards.

You must not play much .50/1 LIMIT. With a huge pot
like this, nobody's folding anything that even catches
a tiny piece of this board. It's not like no limit where you
can make huge bets to price out the draws.[/quote]

I'm no longer playing .5/1, I'm now struggling to go past 2/4 to 3/6 without getting kicked back by a downswing each time, but I have some memories. I don't want them to fold a little piece of the board, but the bad draws (2 to straight/2 to flush) will fold the flop, even at .5/1, as will those who didn't get anything at all.

[quote]Unless a set is obvious, you won't want to get away from an uncoordinated board.

How many boards can you think of that will totally miss
4 other players, who should, in theory have at least
decently playable hands?? Not many....[/quote]

Now, you're the one forgetting we're at .5/1. People here limp with J9o hoping to flop a straight rounders style. they will miss and fold, or hit a 9 and call down, etc etc...

[quote]You're missing the point....As Aseem stated, it's not about
winning HANDS, it's about winning MONEY.
Sure the kings will win the most HANDS, my contention
is that they won't win the most MONEY.[/quote]

I've read aseem. 78s is a good hand multiway, but it doesn't mean it wins the most money. It might actually be the biggest earner if you only count post flop bets, but probably not taking into accounts everything you forced the 5 players to put in preflop. Which, btw, is why you always raise with kings, whatever your position and number of limpers : value.

[quote]You'll win more here in the long term with KK 5-handed than with a suited connector.
Win more hands, yes. Win more money?? I bet that number
is closer than you think...[/quote]

Maybe, but not as close as you think.

How many boards can you think of that will totally miss
4 other players, who should, in theory have at least
decently playable hands?? Not many....[/quote]

Now, you're the one forgetting we're at .5/1. People here limp with J9o hoping to flop a straight rounders style. they will miss and fold, or hit a 9 and call down, etc etc....


People limp hands like J9o at this limit, sure.
Do they call all the way into a capped pot preflop??
Not usually.

What is the statement you wish to discuss, bdc?

Are you saying 78s will win more money in a huge multiway pot than KK?

I very strongly disagree.

You seem to be taking the position that 78s will flop a multiway drawing type of hand (or miss and fold). Therefore the sum of the bets saved by NOT wasting bets on the turn and river (like KK might, for instance, protecting an overpair) will make more money longterm.

Is that what you're saying?

Tj, I don't disagree that KK is a strong hand.

Nor did I ever say anything at all about the
hand 7 8. I don't know where that came from.

Is KK a great hand, of course.

Is it a hand that works well in a 5-way pot?
Not always.

Will you win this hand more often than the
4 other hands in the pot? YES.

Will you win this hand more often than you
will lose this hand? NO.

KK is at best 35-40% favourite here. Which
means you'll lose 60-65% of the time.

My contention is that in those 60-65% of the
times, it's going to cost you a lot of bets.

I think it's close to as much that you'll win
in the 35-40% of the times that your hand is best.

All I was saying is that I'd much prefer this hand
with less players. In a 5-way capped pot, you're
going to need some help to win it often.

That's where I disagree, to an extent. It doesn't "work well" because it's vulnerable. Understanding that is the key to unlocking it's equity, which is enormous from the 5-way cap preflop. That's why big pot play is different from small pot play, and that's why I was (correctly) calling with an overpair instead of raising. I read that I was already behind and the raises would not have been for value, and would have been a spew.



That's immaterial. "Winning more often than losing" implies that I need to win 51% of the time to be profitable. That's simply not true.

To follow up, I'll ask if you think that I'm winning more MONEY than I'm losing by playing it this way.



I'll agree that it gets easier to win the pot with a fewer number of opponents... and it becomes easier to bet that way also.

My point is that, especially in loose, low-limit, bad games, you'll occassionally find yourself in ENORMOUS pots with made hands, and adjustments to strategy need to be made. I think this hand is a good example of that.

And, that's a highly profitable situation to be in.

Totally. I never said that this wasn't a playable hand, and
I'm sure it is a profitable one as well.

I only ever said I wasn't thrilled about playing it 5-way
due the it's vulnerability.

I don't think we're disagreeing on this, I was just
pointing out another avenue of thought.

Well there ya go (:

In earlier forum days this would have been a flame war.

I'm glad everyone here wants to learn and teach.

Unfortunately for my pocket aces twice in a row yesterday, once they've limped in, they're in for the ride... And that was at 2/4 on a 35% table only.

At those levels, a lot of people think : "I have money which is mine into the pot, I have to see the flop".

So yes, I do think J9 will still be there on the flop, as will 78s, 22, KTo, and a lot of crap which will crack my aces/kings.

But i'm still happy to see 5 people on the flop with them (for a few seconds, anyway )