I'm going to do one hand a day for a while in my quest to try to buy a clue in how to play. Thanks to everyone for putting up with me.

(All players involved in this hand have average chipstack. I have largest chip stack.)

***** Hand History for Game 13331252 *****
0.10/0.20 Texas Hold'em (Split Limit)
Table Shiner (10 max) (Real Money) -- Seat 2 is the button
Kinbaku : Small Blind ($0.05)
Ray_Powers : Big Blind ($0.10)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to Ray_Powers [ 5h 9s ]
Every notice how often my hands begin with big blind specials?
biltmore : Call ($0.10)
thebandit1 : Fold
glenndo : Call ($0.10)
TBrady : Fold
S1LLYRABB1T : Fold
RankAmatuer : Call ($0.10)
Kinbaku : Call ($0.05)
Ray_Powers : Check
** Dealing Flop ** : [ 5d 3d Kc ]
Kinbaku : Check
So I hit middle pair. The board is semi coordinated but not a lot. I really want to know if someone has a king here. Since everyone limped, I doubt a big hand is out there hiding. My thought is I bet here, and see what happens, because I honestly feel I may have the best hand right now, and I want to make the diamond and straight draws pay.
Ray_Powers : Bet ($0.10)
biltmore : Call ($0.10)
glenndo : Call ($0.10)
RankAmatuer : Call ($0.10)
Kinbaku : Call ($0.10)
Wow, WTF does everyone have? I didn't really grab much info there. At this point they still could have anything.
** Dealing Turn ** : [ 2c ]
Kinbaku : Check
Ray_Powers : Bet ($0.20)
Well, the straight draw is even more possible now, and now a club flush draw is possible too. I don't think anyone has a made hand though, and I don't want to give anyone else a free card for the tons of draws out there, so I bet to charge them for it. I really think I still have the best hand here.
biltmore : Call ($0.20)
glenndo : Call ($0.20)
RankAmatuer : Call ($0.20)
Kinbaku : Fold
** Dealing River ** : [ 4d ]
So, the flush draw hit, the straight draw hit if somoene has an ace or a 6. This card is horrible for me. I bet hoping that noone hit and I could buy it. In retrospect, this was probably horrible. Those three callers on the turn had to have SOMETHING.
Ray_Powers : Bet ($0.20)
biltmore : Call ($0.20)
glenndo : Fold
RankAmatuer : Raise ($0.40)
Ray_Powers : Fold
I am sure many of you would say "well, you shouldn't have been in this far, but since you were, call it down." But I honestly put myself at a zero chance of winning, so saved the bet.
biltmore : Call ($0.20)
** Summary **
Main Pot: $2.70 | Rake: $0.10

The more I look at this, the more it looks like massive spewing. I think I have a huge leak in my unwillingness to give up the lead when I have it.

Flame away.

Ray

Check/fold that flop. Middle pair (5s no less) with a crap kicker in a multi way pot with a straight draw and a flush draw is horrible. You aren't going to push anyone out, and even if you have the best hand at the moment there is only a marginal chance it will hold up. Just dump it on the flop. But if it is checked around or if bet it and it's called around...

Check/fold the turn. With all those players in there someone either has a weak king, has you outkicked, has a mid pp, everyone has good draws, etc. Your hand most likely is not best, and even if it is it won't stay that way with all these callers, which is expected in this big a family pot. But if it plays out so you see the river...

Someone hit their draw...obviously. Just save your money. This is not an occasion for bet/fold. You aren't getting called by anything you beat, and you aren't getting everyone to fold.

Make it easy on yourself. Don't play a crappy middle pair with no kicker in a multi way pot.

At micro limits, your probably beat by a weak suited king, and then every draw possible gets there, so the river fold is fine. Your edge (if you have one) is small and probably not worth pushing that hard on the turn.

I c/f flop if not HU

usually
c/r flop protects your hand better.
But we are too weak to do that.

I didn't read past that because I dont want results bias

Use the converter.

Check/fold the flop, silly! How often are a pair of 5's going to survive a turn and river in a huge field out of position?

If I were you I'd take a close look at some hands you play out of the blinds if a lot of hands start with big blind specials. Remember, as position worsens, your average profit per position decreases.

The button is the MOST profitable position. SB and UTG are the LEAST profitable positions. You need a better hand than normal, either starting or flopped, to play a hand aggressively out of position.

Is it possible to get bad beat when you flop a pair of 5s no draw?

I don't think so... And to qualify as a bad beat don't you have to lose more than the cost of an egg mc muffin?

I would absolutely love to. Do you know one that works for World Poker Exchange logs? I have tried a couple (including the one in the faq here) with no luck.

Ray

That'll happen.

No worries then.

Egg mcMuffins are very good, so definately not.

Seriously, if you want to skip my microlimits stuff because you don't think its worth the effort, that's fine, but let's not derail the strategy forums into General.

Ray

On the bright side, I figure I'll be off WPX in about a week or two and on to some place better that uses a hand converter. I'm kind of back from my "I have lost my center" kick and into "Screw this, I am going to spend the time it takes to get better," so hey, I may be a donkey now, but at least I'm a donkey trying hard to learn.

Thanks for the advice in the response.

Ray

Actually Egg McMuffins are gross as is anything at McDonalds. Also - not devaluing microlimit stuff, I just don't see this as a bad beat.

Check/fold that flop. It's a small pot, may have best hand now, but no worthy chance to improve if you are behind. Chances of being outdrawn are high, pick a better spot.

don't bet the flop-

check/call could be correct if the pot is big enough

since you bet and everyone called, i would check/fold the turn if you don't improve

How many bad hands like this does it take to turn someone from profitable to non profitable? Obviously you guys are seeing some of my donkish hands because there's no reason for me to post the hands that go well. In the 100 hand sample that I took recently, I highlighted 2 hands that were like this (where I was just a total chip spewing idiot) and 4 hands where I probably missed a bet or two.

Is this anywhere near a number that I can show a long term profit on in a limit game? Do I need to cut it in half? Do I need to cut the donk hands 100% to make it work long term? What do people think?

Ray

edit: fixed a dozen typos or so

Since the advice seems to have died down..

Board: [ 5d 3d Kc 2c 4d ]
RankAmatuer bet $0.80, collected $2.70, net +$1.90 [ 6c 7c ] [ a
straight, seven to three -- 7c 6c 5d 4d 3d ]
biltmore lost $0.80 [ 7h Ah ] [ a straight, five to ace -- 5d 4d 3d 2c
Ah ]
RankAmatuer wins $2.70 from the main pot with a straight, seven to
Three

Heh, they both stayed in with gutshot straight draws with a flush draw on the board that hit. Who woulda thought. At least the winner also had a club flush draw on the turn.... I guess? The results is why this one feels like a bad beat, even though I know I played it bad regardless.

Ray

you just need to play on tables where others are making more mistakes.
Seriously.

Your effort to improve and knowing "this is a donkish" hand will go far in keeping you ahead of most of the table.

I hear at higher limits, being more lsective with tables is crucial, especilly if you are just slightly better than average for hteat limit.

One think I struggle with..is the seemingly fine line between when to Raise the Flop and when to Fold. Sometimes it doesn't take much. and most of the time in these Bet or Fold flop situations..Calling is usually the worst choice. In other situations, Calling is best.
Someone could put a post together of just Flop decisions that we could debate.

I think part of the problem is that my default position is to lead off the flop just to see where I am in the hand, when the correct play may be to check/call. I think that may be one of my hugest leaks is not understanding when check call is better. (excluding the obvious "you have nothing and were just in because its an unraised pot and you were the big blind")

Ray