Sorry about the long winded version. The hand converter does not convert World Poker Exchange hand histories....

I really want comments on this one. I like to go back over my hands and see where I may have missed bets... Comments in bold. Everyone involved in this pot has a fair sized chip stack.

***** Hand History for Game 13330443 *****
0.10/0.20 Texas Hold'em (Split Limit) - Sun Oct 9 02:43:12 GMT 2005
Table Shiner (10 max) (Real Money) -- Seat 6 is the button
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to Ray_Powers [ Js Ts ]
--- My self admitted favorite hand. Its a loose game, and I am in middle position. I would either limp in with this, call a limp, or fold it to a raise.
player25 : Fold
S1LLYRABB1T : Call ($0.10)
homebrew : Fold
goriver : Call ($0.10)
Kinbaku : Fold
Ray_Powers : Call ($0.10)
--- Call a limp it is.
biltmore : Check
thebandit1 : Call ($0.10)
glenndo : Call ($0.05)
LUCASSY : Check
theoretically.
** Dealing Flop ** : [ 4s 8s 3c ]
--- Well, I have my flush draw, and two overs.
glenndo : Check
LUCASSY : Check
S1LLYRABB1T : Bet ($0.10)
goriver : Call ($0.10)
Ray_Powers : Call ($0.10)
--- I decided to call here. Folding seems out of the question. I wonder about a raise though. I do have a flush draw and two overs. The two blinds checked, and I don't see who else would have hit this flop. Worst case scenario is pocket 3's limped in and then hit? Unlikely. I think, in the end, I don't raise because I want to keep people in to pay off my flush if it hits, but I want opinions here.
biltmore : Fold
thebandit1 : Call ($0.10)
glenndo : Call ($0.10)
LUCASSY : Fold
** Dealing Turn ** : [ 9c ]
--- Now I have an open ended straight draw and STILL have two overs. Theoretically any spade, 7, 10, J, or Queen can win me the pot. That's 19 (9 Spades, 2 non spade sevens, 3 non spade 10's, 3 non spade jacks, 2 non spade queens) outs.
glenndo : Check
S1LLYRABB1T : Bet ($0.20)
goriver : Call ($0.20)
Ray_Powers : Call ($0.20)
--- I think I question not raising here the most. During the turn the people with missed draws will fold whether its 20 or 40. The people with something will stay in either way. My biggest fear is a high flush draw out there than mine, and if that happens, well then I am ****ed and need to deal. Do I bet here? This is my biggest concern.
thebandit1 : Fold
glenndo : Call ($0.20)
** Dealing River ** : [ 3s ]
--- As seems to happen to me all the time, I hit my flush, but paired the board. So I lose to any higher flush draw, and anything that make a fullhouse. I like my flush, but if ahead of me I see bet, raise, reraise, I am probably laying this down.
glenndo : Check
S1LLYRABB1T : Bet ($0.20)
goriver : Call ($0.20)
Ray_Powers : Call ($0.20)
--- Everyone saw the same cards I did. With a bet, call, I have to assume people have something they are willing to play with. I think a raise here will turn into a reraise if I am beat, and I should take my bets and be happy if my flush holds up, especially with someone after me left to act. I think some people would raise here and call this play too tight, and if so I want to hear that opinion, but for now, I think just calling was the correct answer.
glenndo : Fold
** Summary **
Main Pot: $2.50 | Rake: $0.10

Ok, opinions?

I check-raise the flop, bet/call the turn, raise/call the river personally. Its better to be too agressive then not aggressive enough in limit.

Raise the flop, you have good equity and in late position. Since you have position they will probably check to you on the turn unless they have a very strong hand, then you can decide if you want a free river or not.

Turn, your hand is even stronger, you have 6 sure outs, 9 damn good ones, and 6 maybe's. You should be getting in a lot of bets here in multiway pots, you only need to hit a few to make it profitable since you have more people in the pot.

River, if you had been more aggressive you'd have a better idea what you're up against, but now you just have to guess. It's better just to call here not knowing what type of hand your opponent has. You definately missed a few bets here on the flop and turn.

raise flop - clear out over cards and equity advantage
raise turn - huge equity edge here

you might win if a 10 hits
see if you can fold AT
fold over cards that don't have good draws so your hi cards pairing have a better chance.

This is an easy flop and turn raise imo.

PF and
River is fine.

You know, raising for the free card did not seriously enter my head, and probably should have.

I didn't quite get your count on my turn outs tho.

I'm a bit disheartened that everyone seems to think its an "easy" raise on the turn. My flush/straight is going to play better multiway. Do I really want to chase people out on the flop? I realize this is a bit schizo in thinking, since I decide I DO want to try to chase people out on the turn...... I just am trying to understand if a flop raise is for value or to chase out other players, or both and why...

Ray

imagine if turn is a flush..then river is the 4th spade.
Now how you feel?

Losing to redraws stinks.

Get weak draws out.
That also includes over card outs.

Wait until you flop a boat or better to slow slow play.

Your hand is strong enough to raise but the pot is getting big and you want to give yourself the best chance to win it.

its an "easy" raise because its mathematical. assuming you have 9 flush outs, 6 non-flush straight outs and 6 overcard outs, thats 21. there are 46 unseen cards, so your odds of winning this hand are 21/46. that is just over 45%. therefore if you can get two people to put additional bets in this hand, you will be getting 2 bets for the one additional bet you put in. that is one bet, returning two, which means you only need a 33% chance or better of winning this hand to make this a profitable situation. since you are at 45%, if two (or more) people are willing to put in this extra bet, this is good for you. your raise will accomplish that.


your raise on the flop is even more important. it accomplishes four things:

firstly - equity. as above, you have about a 33% chance of winning this hand, and more than 2 people putting extra money in this pot.

secondly - knock people out. you will not raise out a higher flush draw. what you may knock out though is a hand containing a 10 or a Jack. This gives you additional outs, since if someone folds AJ, you have gained those 3 outs.

thirdly - position. if you raise, they will likely check to you on the turn. then you can check also and essentially pay $0.10 to see a river card instead of $0.20.

fourthly - deception. although not overly deceptive, people won't be able to assume you have a flush/straight. this is not the case if the flush hits and you raise out of the blue.

there are probably more reasons, this is off the top of my head. I recommend carefully reading and re-reading Sklansky's Small Stakes Hold 'Em and/or Lee Jones' Winning Low-Limit Hold 'Em. It seems like you may need to go over a few introductory concepts. Not a flame, but some of your thought processes in that hand could be improved.

Good luck,
Daniel

ps.

The turn raise is an equity play.
You are putting in far less money than you are expected to win.
See?

If I told you to pay me a dollar and I'd give you back $4 1/3 of the time and $0 2/3 of the time...randomly...you'd do it, right? I hope.




Also, on the river losts of palyers who would pay u one bet now, are folding the river if they miss, or see the flush.

Actually I am on read number two of SSHE, and read number one of Hold Em for Advanced Players. Wheee.

I see what you are saying on most of those points. And in fact they are most of my reasons for questioning my lack of turn raise. Why I did not apply them to the flop is beyond me, and I need to think on that.

I need to become one with my donkey-ness, and then blow my donkey-ness's brains out Fight Club Style...


Ray

sounds like you're on your way. the lack of a flop raise is a major leak, but so long as you know this, its no big deal. the turn raise would be nice, but it isn't hugely problematic IF you are likely to get bet into again on the river if a straight or flush card hits - which is true for many low limit games.

daniel

You are in late position with a pretty strong draw. You need to be raising here. Definitely on the flop, and probably on the turn. On the river you are correct to not get too carried away, but I think it's +EV to bet/call.

So: bet/call flop, bet/call turn, bet/call river

Board: [ 4s 8s 3c 9c 3s ]
goriver lost $0.60 [ 8c Kh ] [ two pairs, eights and threes -- 8s 8c
3s 3c Kh ]
Ray_Powers bet $0.60, collected $2.50, net +$1.90 [ Js Ts ] [ a flush,
jack high -- Js Ts 8s 4s 3s ]
S1LLYRABB1T lost $0.60 [ Qd Qs ] [ two pairs, queens and threes -- Qs
Qd 3s 3c 9c ]

Interesting to note that if the pocket queens guy had raised with his queens, I would have folded and therefore he would have won the pot....

What the guy with K8 offsuit was doing is beyond me..... I guess he though his top pair on an uncoordinated board was good post flop, but I have no idea why he was in the hand to begin with.

Ray

At the stakes you are playing people play ANYTHING. They marry top pair regardless of kicker and usually won't fold even if overcards come on the turn and river. The good news is most of the players aren't any better as you move up.

Probably most of the players you see up to 3/6 or so are just having fun, and not trying to study the game and get better.

Whereas I am the opposite, analyzing my play even in fricking pub poker events for leaks.

I'm getting better, but its a slow process.

Ray