I never know how to handle this situation... fold to the flop bet or raise??...fold the turn?? Any help is appreciated.


PokerStars Game #2736518821: Hold'em Limit ($0.50/$1.00) -

*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to rex2732 [Qs Qd]
DeadNutz: folds
jwb1948: folds
kango: folds
Lucky1326: folds
refiner: folds
rex2732: raises $0.50 to $1
ragham1: folds
pokerjfb: folds
Damages: folds
kelgoon: calls $0.50
*** FLOP *** [Kh 2c 3d]
kelgoon: bets $0.50
rex2732: calls $0.50
*** TURN *** [Kh 2c 3d] [Js]
kelgoon: bets $1
rex2732: calls $1
*** RIVER *** [Kh 2c 3d Js] [6h]
kelgoon: bets $1
rex2732: calls $1
*** SHOW DOWN ***
kelgoon: shows [Kd Jh] (two pair, Kings and Jacks)
rex2732: mucks hand
kelgoon collected $7 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $7.25 | Rake $0.25

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you have to and i repeat have to raise this flop...if he 3 bets then its an easy fold ui on the turn...if he just calls...you may be able to squeeze out a free pass ot the river..both options are better than what you did

isn't this Wa/Wb..why raise flop?

It depends on reads for a hand like this, a lot of the time when they bet out like this, they've usually got a King with a weak kicker. Considering this is not a draw heavy board where lots of players will bet out a flush draw, I think it's possible to fold the flop as I'd probably put my opponent on a King.

You may be folding the best hand once in a while, but you should be doing that sometimes anyways if your playing well.

isn't this Wa/Wb..why raise flop?


Because if he three-bets something that doesn't beat QQ here, he's going to make you rich later.

If he calls and leads the turn, you can fold. If checks the turn you can check behind and cheaply showdown your hand that has some showdown value heads up.

good luck.

I disagree with you here smash.

If he 3-bets something that doesn't beat QQ here, he will make you rich later, but he'll cost you money now. Same logic applies if he pulls a stop n go. There are too many players at the lower limits who do retarded things when a pot is contested HU.

Your line also denies you the slim chance of outdrawing your opponent on later streets if you are behind.



In this case you spend 2BB to get to showdown. If you call down, you spend 2.5BB. In both cases you showdown a hand that has a decent chance of winning. The reasoning for calling down is that you will never fold the winning hand since you always see a showdown. I think this is well worth the 0.5BB in the long run.

If he 3-bets something that doesn't beat QQ here, he will make you rich later, but he'll cost you money now.


Why do I care?

If he raises every time I bet without fail, I'm going to fold some winners.

He's also going to be broke.

Bad players pick off the most bluffs.

That's true, but it's a silly way to describe this situations.

Bad players also win the most pots, but that doesn't mean you should never try to win.

I think you will get bluffed here HU in this situation more than you give credit for.

Why not bet the turn too?

If he check/raises the turn, you're almost _always_ behind against .50/1 players. Bet/call check/raise is the line of greatest strength, i find. You can fold at that point. You do lose the pot in the very rare circumstances that you are ahead, and you also miss the opportunity of improving on the river, but i think those two factors are more than offset from the average value you get from calls. Same applies for the river. If he came off as a rock, or particularly passive, that would be different. Then i probably take smash's line or just fold the flop and be done with it.

Typically though, people lead with any pair from the BB against a PFR, and call down the whole way. They do this with top pair, but they also do this with mid or bottom pair. If he gaybets the turn, i fold. If he 3bets the flop, i call and fold the turn UI.

I think you will get bluffed here HU in this situation more than you give credit for.

Then I'll get three-bet when I have a set or whatever just as much, right?

I'm fine with that.

I think you're crazily overestimating the likelyhood of someone three-betting this flop with middle pair or worse.

If they are, from a metagame standpoint, I'm going to make a ton of money from them regardless.

Not sure what the confusing part is.

You're wrong, I'm right, move on. It happens.



good luck.

Aseem made me say Wa/Wb !




seriously though...
what makes this different?

Let me guess:

1. Villan called our raise from BB...giving him a very wide range of hands.
2. It's a K not and Ace on the flop

we don't have enough info to assume wa/wb

If Villan had 3-bet pf and lead out on this flop...then WA/WB more correct?


thanks.

If he has nothing, he will fold. If you give him a free card in this case, he likely is drawing dead, or has 3 outs (aces) to beat you.

Checking here in postion may induce a bluff on the end, and prevents you from getting c/red on the turn.

Do you think he folds any pair? I dont.

He may have 5 outs if he holds mid or bottom pair, and he may have as much as 8 if he holds an OESD.

Damn you smash.

If only I had used that line before you, I would have been right!

I usually raise the flop, you want to let this guy know that you will not raise a white flag if you raised preflop and are led into. You're letting the whole table know that if they're paying attention with 1 SB. Anyways, I would check the turn behind him, assuming he didn't lead out, because, sometimes this induces a bluff if he thinks you have no hand and you profit from that induced bluff on the river.

Does this hand, QQ vs K on the flop play out the same as KK vs an A on the flop? Isn't this what makes middle pairs difficult, because of the likelihood of overcards coming? Albeit with pocket Q's or K's the likelihood of an overcard coming is drastically less, but when an overcard does hit, is that typically how it is played.

So there's like 4 suggested lines so far, someone want to add another?

read dependent too.
As HU is.


I think this is better for us thann KK vs A on board simply becuase BB is more likely to call/raise our pf raise holding an Ace.
It's considerably more likely we are ahead now.
Some BB"s never fold to one bet pf, though

Open-Farrell on the flop.