I'm on the button with Ad 4d Js Jh.

Folded to C/O who min raises, I call, blinds fold, pot's at 110.

Flop is Jd 3s 5s. He leads 60 into me.

I....

Oh, we both have ~3kish stacks.

I guess this is PLO8.

Call the flop, pot any good turn.

I guess this is PLO8.

Call the flop, pot any good turn.


Yup.

Tell me why you wouldn't raise the flop with a vulnerable hand.

Tell me why you wouldn't raise the flop with a vulnerable hand.

If Villain repots it on this flop we're in pretty bad shape. We'd be getting 2 to 1, but we'd have to think we're playing for half the pot most of the time, and losing that between 1/3rd and 1/4th of the time. On the turn our equity changes a lot.

I don't really know, though, just my first impression.

If Villain repots it on this flop we're in pretty bad shape. We'd be getting 2 to 1, but we'd have to think we're playing for half the pot most of the time, and losing that between 1/3rd and 1/4th of the time. On the turn our equity changes a lot.


What range of hands would you put a repot on here, and would you be comfortable getting all the chips in here if that were an option?

AsXs2X
AsXs4X
AsXs33
AsXs55
A24X
246Xs
467Xs

Maybe some others.

I'd have to run the numbers somewhere, but I wouldn't like getting all the money in vs. a flush draw with a better low.

From a pure math standpoint, we're ahead of A2+ flush draws here.

We're even marginaly ahead of, say, As2s6dAc or something along those lines.

The only hands were signifigantly hurt by are flush wraps like As2s4x etc.

Would that change your decision to call any?

I'll suppose we're ahead of Villain's range of repotting hands, so that getting all the chips in on the flop has a positive (maybe small) expectation.

Now I just need to figure out if waiting for the turn has a better expectation. For starters, your equity can go way up on the turn (board pairs, brick hits, etc.) and Villain will probably still put chips in. The thing that worries me is that sometimes you will make mistakes, because you don't know which draws Villain has.

So going in on the flop prevents us from being outplayed, but if we think we can outplay Villain, wait for the turn.

I'd like to hear what you did.

I raised it to 120, he called.

Turn was 2d, which is where we get to the intresting part.

He pots it, and it's 350ish to me.

Fold that flop.

Isn't that what you say 99% of the time?

If it was me, playing at a table where the dollar values were relevant to to what I play at, I would probaly just call. 8)

ok, so in this situation, are you looking to get all your chips in? assuming he has A46, what is your equity (approx)
this is what I don't get about omaha PL strategy - do you pump in now with your equity advantage or just call and wait for the river. i'd assume the former, but I'm never sure with O8 PL

Now that is interesting. Here, I think I would call, hoping to make some money on the river too.

I think the approach is to think about what eack action CO took means to us.

Min-raise preflop.
betting half of the pot on the flop, calling min-raise.
Potting the turn.

he didn't have A46.

Repot it!

Edited:

Even if he played in a weired way that he had A46,
- At worst you got quartered.
- you still have 16 outs (9 diamonds, two 3s, two 5s, two 2 (don't count on 2 of spade), one J)
- So, even you were against A46, you weren't so behind.

To be exact, even you were against A46, you were 16/24 = 2/3 .

Also I liked the min-raise on the flop, if he had wrap around draws, flush draws... It'll be a crime for CO for not reraising you. He should be playing at $25 table instead of 2k.

Smash would be a 52.5 to 47.5 dog in equity against A46. A 4 to 3 favorite against villain wheel + flush draw. And a 6 to 4 favorite in equity against the wheel only. If you don't believe he has A46, a push is in order. You have a significant edge over any hand other than A46. Re-raise.

Who calls and who raises and why?

Smash...I just edited it...I didn't notice you picked up Flush draw on the turn.

Seems that we're likely freerolling the villain on the turn.

With the uncounterfeitable nut low, the second nut high, a spade for blocking, and around 16 outs to the likely nut high, I'm extremely tempted to try to get the money in on the turn in case the river scares the opponent.

Duh?

The nut high is 23456.

The 2nd nut high is A2345.

What I was trying to say was, the 2nd nut high is no where close to being good enough for high, if co indeed had 23456.

I think he almost has to have A4 here, along with either a 6 or a spade draw (or both). (I guess 6432 is possible, or maybe he's bluffing with only the nut spade draw, but I think A4 is much more likely.) I can't see him potting with a naked A4. And I'm sure he would bet with A46 (which we're a little behind), but I'm not sure he would with A4 and a spade draw (which we're a little ahead of).

So I'd just call the turn, and my river plan would be:

Spade: Fold if he bets pot, call if he bets around 1/2 pot or less, check behind if he checks.

Diamond or Board Pair: Pot if he checks, reraise pot if he bets

Other: Call if he bets, check behind if he checks.

He could just as easily put you on A2, and be trying to steal on the turn.

Worst case scenario he has A246 with the nut flush draw, and a couple diamonds as well.

Good cards: 1 J, 2 or 3 "2's", 2 or 3 "3's", 2 or 3 "5's", 7-9 diamonds....So you've got approx. 16 outs. 16/40* 3/4=.3 24/40*1/4=.15. Therefore your pot equity in the worst case scenario is 45%. If he's bluffing, let him keep bluffing.


I think you should just call. If you make your boat on the river, it's fairly well disguised, and he's not folding the nut low anyway if you bet the pot on the river.

Worst case scenario he has A246 with the nut flush draw, and a couple diamonds as well.

No need to worry about diamonds.

No need to worry about spades if CO already had A46.

If CO had only two spades drawing to the flush and good in one direction only, we are way ahead.

If CO had a smaller set and good in one direction only, we are way way ahead.

The only hand we need to worry about is if CO had A46x.

Hero's flop min-raise eliminated the chance of CO's having A246 with spades, A246, not even A24x ns. but it didn't eleminate the chance of A46.

But CO's preflop min-raise reduced the chance of him holding A46x. It's a hand that needs more players in the pot and his A46x is much better than SB and BB's average hands.

What Smash didn't tell us was his observations about CO. I assumed him as a good player at 2k level, although fish is everywhere.

Now assume all my reasonings were wrong, and CO indeed had A46.

As I posted earlier, we were only 40/60 behind.

If a scared card come on the river, we may not get paid off if we just called on the turn.

A raise if not repotting is in order, in my opinion.

I call.

His pre-flop raise looks like a position raise, probably with A2xy, with at least one of xy being a wheel card.

His flop bet in to you doesn't tell us much - any A2 will probably continue here. His call of your raise suggests that he maybe doesn't have spades, and he may well put you on A2s.

With the 2 on the turn, his bet may be designed to test his read of your holding A2, or he may have had A24x, with x even being a 6. In the former category would be all the A23x and A25x hands. So I would put him 2:1 on a bluff here.

If he is bluffing:

If you raise back into him, he is going to fold and you take it here (700).

If you just call, he may interpret this as weakness and fire a second barrell on the river if a blank hits. Or he may pay off a smaller bet of 100 or so.

If you call and the river comes with a non-pairing spade, he may have a hand with which to bet into you, although him having spades is questionable. I think I call this bet if it comes, and expect to get at least half. If he doesn' t bet it, then I pot it, representing the hand that he has probably put me on.

The only really bad possibility for you is if the river brings a non-diamond 4. Here you run the risk of him having the 6 in his hand and getting 1/4, but again I still call his bet.

If he is not bluffing:

You are only really worried about A46 and A4c. For these to do you any damage, the board must miss diamonds and pairs (27 outs) (or hit non-pairing spades (8 outs which are included in the 27)), which is pretty likely (27/44).

With this in mind, if you bet back on the turn you may well end up getting put all-in with the worst of it. If you just call the turn, and call a bet on the river, your maximum loss will be 600, you will probably split, and you stand a 17/44 chance of winning 900.

So, calling the turn helps you win the most and lose the least regardless of his hand.

I don't like having to play a guessing game on the river. As was mentioned, villain could just as easily have put you on A2, and be trying to steal on the turn. Or he could have another A4 and is assuming that his wheel is good. Smooth calling the turn with the intention to re-evaluate on the river puts us in a tricky situation if faced with a pot-sized bet. Making a bad fold on the river would be devastating to our EV. On the other hand, raising and getting it all-in on the turn (Assuming villain obliges) will at worst be a minor mistake. Giving villain the best possible hand something like As 4s 6d 7d gives hero 42.5% equity. That's a pretty good worst case scenerio, so I'd push.

I think I'd pot the turn.

I don't really have any good reasons why other than it looks to me like I have a monster.

That's why I don't play 2k PLO8.

I like this argument if you think your opponent may be bluffing with just A2. You definitely don't want this guy to fold to a turn raise. It depends on how loose your opponent is really. If he usually has the goods when he bets....then definitely raise (because even against A46 you are a very slight dog). Even with just a call though, you'll still be able to put at least another 500 to pot-sized (1050 by the river) bet on the river if he checks to you on the river and you hit one of your high draws. If you do raise the turn though, you need to make sure the pot ends up bigger than your remaining stack. You want the ability to be all-in by the river.

Edit: Thinking about it some more. The flop might be re-raised if he held A24....so now I think I really like the idea of calling unless smash has a read on this player betting only the "goods". He might be on a bluff here, let him try to fire again on the river.

I remember reading a comment that smash doesn't post hand histories because most hands are fairly straightforward. But I really appreciate this one, it has been very thought provoking for me.

Very interesting hand. I guess a lot of the decision would have to be based on your read of the player. Is there a chance he's potting thinking you simply missed both a your flush draw and had your low counterfitted? Does he often PFR to buy the button?

I think I would lean towards calling here to see what develops on the river. If he's firing away with the worst of it you let him take another shot, if you catch good at the end you've got position and both nuts. If you think it's likely he has one of the few hands you'd like to avoid (A46x) you'll be able to make the decision based on knowing all the cards and having position. The only snag is what you did or would have done if you missed at the end? If you miss and it's another 700 to call I'm thinking you'd have to let the hand go unless you've got a solid read. Based solely on the fact that he can play and win (at least up to this point) at the 2k table and is willing to lead out of position probably needs to be respected.

So Smash, what did you do and why? What were your thought process on each street, preflop, flop, turn, and river?

D' U C Y?

No shit I don't !

So Smash, what did you do and why?

I just called. For a couple of reasons. I don't want him to fold a naked low with weak redraws right here if I raise when he'll bet into me on most rivers. I also don't want to get a lot of chips in if I'm looking at A46 with spade redraws or whatever. I think I'm probably ahead most of the time here, but not by enough that it's a mistake not to try to get all the chips in here.

So anyway, I call, river comes 6s.

He checks, I get really confused.

What's your play?

I know I said earlier that I would bet if a non-pairing spade came on the river and it was checked to me....but the 6 makes it a bit ugly, for obvious reasons (as would the 4s actually). Now there are just too many ways that he can beat us for 3/4 - and he may even have the SF and be hoping we bet the A-hi. I think I just check it and hope I get my money back.

Check, I don't think value bet is an option. Neither is bluffing.

Check behind, right? If you make a moderate bet, I think it's unlikely that you would be scooping if he calls, and unlikely that he folds anything you would have split with. And it doesn't seem worth the risk to pot it when he could have A4 with two little spades.

You and me both. If he doesn't have at least a flush or a wheel...I would be a bit shocked. He probably puts YOU on the flush, and maybe the flush + wheel. I have a feeling if you bet here you aren't going to get a call....you're either getting a fold or a raise against you. The raise is a little doubtful too....because if he actually had a nut something, he is possibly making a value bet here. I'm not sure how much value you'll get out of betting, and I would be fearful of a pot raise.

So I am either leaning toward checking behind....or "value betting" half the pot, and hoping for just a call. Knowing my stupidity I would probably pay off a raise. So to be safe, I probably just check. I don't think he will pay you off with anything less than the wheel...but then again I don't play 2000 PLO8 either. I play 20 PLO8...and I'm probably betting the river then against the generally horrible competition. This is really read dependent....if this is some rich dude that would donk off his stack, then you should probably bet.

Max-raise the turn...

I think I'm voting for checking behind and hoping for the best unless you were pretty sure any bet wouldn't end up repotted because that would end up quite ugly.

Of course seeing him tuck up when the spade hits makes it very tempting to put him to the test but the confusing play on the river would have taken me too long to decipher so I would have tucked up behind him.

Max-raise the turn...


Yeah, that's an option and it's fairly close, but not close enough that I thouhgt much about doing it.

Good luck.

So Smasharoo and MarionSauce are one? Or two that have become one(conjoined)?

Anyway,on the river(since he checked) it seems like you had a freeroll of different sorts all along. A freeroll to diamond flush + boat as well as freeroll to flush bluff!
Now you have to weigh up the relative chances that if you pot bet:
a) he has a wheel and/or higher straight(split or 3/4 hand)and will fold to the pot bet
he is trapping with the wheel+flush.
c) he has split or 3/4 hand and will call
d) he has less than wheel and folds(as he should)

b, c and d mean you should check
Option b is unlikely I'd think, so it's a case of whether you want to check behind to get information on this opponent, or attempt the bluff. Are the chances of option(a) high???
Seems you need info on this opponent, so check and forget the bluff this time.

So how did this end? Was he getting sneaky with his check on river or was he giving up?

Smasharoo? Did you decide to test him or simply check behind?

Smash value bet his hand, CO potted it back.

Smash mucked his 4444 and typed "How dare you played your hand out of position?"

Flop play seems OK. My action would depend on the opponent--if he's prone to random continuation bets with as little as naked nut low draw, I'd put in a raise of some type here.

Turn, I'd jam/call about 50/50. I'm generally willing to get quartered by A46 since I have the boat redraw. A46 with the flush draw is also a fear, but I think A4s is a bigger likely hand, and you'd be a favorite against it at this point.

River, I'd definitely bet the pot. Turn action may be an A26 feeling frustrated. If you get quartered, I'd be very surprised... A46 should not check that river for fear of A4s, prior probability too small.

Mostly though, I'd consider the opponent's specific tendencies.

River, I'd definitely bet the pot.


Me too.


Turn action may be an A26 feeling frustrated. If you get quartered, I'd be very surprised.


I didn't.

good luck.

Frankly, I don't even believe this hand ever took place. Post a Party format HH. You're so ****ing full of shit, can't back shit up with proof to save your life. Here's a hand I just made up. I get dealt A234 two spades to the ace in CO (A,4). I raise the pot, button reraises the max. FOlds around, I just call. Flop comes 235, one spade (2). I check, he bets the pot, I just call because I'm afraid he might have A46. Then the turn brings a 3, the 3 of SPADES. This is where it gets interesting. I check, and he CHECKS BEHIND! (OMG) The river completes my straight flush, should I bet or just check-raise??? I don't know--playing these nut hands is such a pain in the ass, and an exercise for massive discourse. Fortunately, discussion of how to play the nuts is the only thing we have to worry about, since marginal situations never come up and are far less interesting/important, despite the fact that they happen with about 5x the frequency of these optimal-nut-peddling hands.

40k my ****ing ass. You haven't won 40k in your life, and until you post a shred of evidence, all your HH's and advice should be taken with the same grain of salt my HH should be: jack SHIT.

GOOD LUCK!

Wintermute i think you have issues

I thought the hand was pretty damn interesting.

I'm not clear on why we're betting the river - you think it's more likely that he folds something like 64xx (6432 would be the only thing that makes sense on the flop, right?) or some hand with two small spades that he bluffed the turn with than it is that he's check-calling an A4xx with two small spades or an A46? I can't imagine he'd fold A4 here...

Very entertaining.

I usually miss a lot of goodies during weekends.

I have no idea if he has or has not, but I know that I have won at least $10K online, but have also lost $9K (net profit of $1K).

-fop