Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (10 handed) converter

Preflop: econ_tim is MP3 with 2:diamond:, 2:club:.
UTG calls, UTG+1 raises, econ_tim calls, CO calls, BB calls.

Flop: (17.50 SB) 3:heart:, 6:spade:, 4:diamond: (5 players)
BB checks, UTG+1 bets, BB calls, UTG+1 calls, econ_tim calls.

Turn: (12.75 BB) 6:diamond: (5 players)
BB checks, UTG+1 bets, BB calls, UTG+1 calls, econ_tim calls.

River: (20.75 BB) J:spade: (5 players)
BB checks, UTG+1 checks, econ_tim checks, CO bets, BB calls, UTG+1 calls, econ_tim folds.

Final Pot: 23.75 BB

-Drawing Donkey

fold preflop to the raise. Every other call was marginally okay.

anay reeads?

I fold the first time u can against normal UTG+1 raises
Then I might fold the cap bet too.

my main read was that CO was pretty loose preflop and called down postflop

he's the reason i cold-called here

I think UTG+1 and CO have high pp's. (maybe 88, maybe AA)

In which case you are likely drawing to about 7 outs. I think you played everything well after preflop.

Flop call bad.

good luck.

I fold this PF. No reason to suspect this pot will be sufficiently multi-way to make this a profitable call (unless you knew the folks behind you to be cold-calling stations).

Fold the flop. Fold the turn. Hey, good fold on the river

Jeff

haven't read replies--fold the turn!

yes the pot is big, but it is no longer big enough to justify chasing either two set outs or four VERY DIRTY gutshot outs.

see what i mean?

aseem

nah, i don't think it is getting ~ 18-to-1.

while you don't know whether you're drawing live to a set or a sucker straight, you're most likely drawing live to ONE of them.

just the fact that you have a bunch of people acting behind you does suck, but i think in a big pot, calling one (and then obviously calling one more back to you) is marginally profitable enough to justify a call.

it's the turn that should definitely be folded, though.

aseem

wha wha wha wha whaaaat??

how in the world do you get the number 7??

six is the *maximum* -- two set outs and four gutshot outs.

that doesn't even discount any for them sucking so badly, mostly the gutshot outs.

i think giving him four outs is pretty generous here. i'd guess two to three.

aseem

I'll explain it all in my next book "How to misread boards and overestimate outs"

I thought Tim had a OESD - by using my method, fish can happily chase unprofitable draws guilt free. :-)

I fold this turn.

funny...

some fold preflop
some fold flop
some fold turn

what kind of hands does anyone have that contain a 7?

i said the table was loose, not maniacal

i can think of 77 and, um, ...

so I'd estimate my turn outs around 5

I'd fold pre-flop. three-betting is even better than calling cold with dueces. I'd drop this though and wait for a better opportunity pre-flop.

I like folding better too
But 3-bet >>> Calling ??
Aren't we playing this for set value, when we play?

What happened to the other opponent? I thought it said 5 players, but I only count 4...

Yeah, I'd say 5 outs is about right.

I don't mind the call as much now with only 3 opponents, 2 of which likely have pp's >77.

We three bet to take away the pot w/out showdown, or you fold if you don't think you can.

If this goes to showdown w/out improving we are dead. If we three-bet we need to believe we can take it down on a flop or turn bet - or hit our lucky 1/7.5 shot.

I am not that confident of that though, so I am folding pre-flop.

Calling is worse because we cannot (or much tougher) take away the pot if both players miss. We throw in a minimum 2 SB, possibly 4. Our pot commitment is 1/3 about with a 1/7.5 shot to at best hit bottom set. Three-bet to take away or muck.

PREFLOP PLAY IS NOT ABOUT POT ODDS.

There's no need to yell.

For the record, I fold preflop, call the flop same as you, and fold turn.

lol.

i feel your frustration timmy.

but... but...... tim... you need to take the lead in this hand so that you can win without showdown!! you know, make the other guys fold, increase your fold equity!!

aseem

for the record, i ripped tim apart in person telling him that the BB being in this hand and cold-calling all day means you're definitely NOT drawing live to all of your outs.

for the record, BB had a 7 in his hand.

for the record, i rock. :-)

aseem

I'll take the low-percentage/high-payoff option. BTW, I read that article. Pretty good stuff. Insurance bets are for suckers.

i thought it was hilarious how it took me maybe 15 paragraphs to get to any actual poker discussion.

aseem

Go ahead and call then. If you played this out on Turbo Hold'em over a few thousand hands I expect you would find calling the worst play. I will run this simulation tonight on Turbo and let you know.

what profile are you using for each villian...??

i fold this hand preflop, but calling is way better than three-betting with 22 against an average low limit villian.

i'm really stunned that this is being considered. i mean, when we're looking at borderline hands like 77/66, we always point to 22 as the "duh, i'm obviously not three-betting here" as a justification for arguing that three-betting 66 isn't too smart either.

i'm not meaning to be closed-minded or elitist. if you need a simulation to show you this, go for it.

aseem

If we make a global "I will never three-bet 22" statement, then doesn't that justify me occassionally three-betting? Mixing it up.

Again, I said I think fold is the best bet. I HATE cold-calling in nearly any situation. You, being the SSHE expert must agree with the cold-calling.

I prefer calling over raising for post flop equity when I hit my set.
Super implied odds.
No need to battle over the small pot now..with just 22.
He might cap..with me HU preflop.
That would suck.

and I like folding pf best.
but I do make calls like this, hence 22% VPiP, full.

???

mixing it up, for what??

deceptive purposes?

are you kidding?






aseem

cold calling is more wrong on the flop than pf.
In general.

You fold no matter what pre-flop? If so, how can cold-calling be better or worse that three-betting? Neither is an option in your mind.

I am saying 9 out of 10 I fold. If I play, I three-bet.

wow, we are in miscommunication central over here.

IN THIS SPECIFIC HAND, i would have folded where tim cold-called preflop.

REGARDLESS, cold-calling has a higher EV than three-betting, IN THIS SPECIFIC HAND.

aseem

You fold no matter what pre-flop? If so, how can cold-calling be better or worse that three-betting? Neither is an option in your mind.

true.

but doesn't mean you can't rank the other two options.
Hypothetically, if folding was not allowed.

I'm sorry to keep hashing this out..... I feel like I am having a conversation with my wife . . . I am discussing, she is arguing....

Aseem - Is it not true that you rarely find a good reason to cold call? Maybe you have reason do this once every 3 hours online. This is not a situation I am comfortable cold-calling. Ever.

I find it funny we are discussing what is "second best".

SSHE recxommends cold callnig several hands.

I don't believe that includes cold calling an EP raiser with no limpers, being the first to call after the raise, numerous people behind you, and all that with 22.

Now maybe in a live game where you look around the table and see 7 others with two bets in their hand ready to call.... but not on the internet.

lol @ the wife comment.

we were miscommunicating. i thought you were arguing that i would "always" fold 22 to a raise preflop. i was talking abuot this specific hand, instead.

SSHE somewhat contradicts itself on the cold-calling issue. in one paragraph they say you should only be doing this once every three hours live, but at other parts they metnion that cold calling with low pocket pairs and some suited hands is good if the pot is multiway and you have good relative position.

here, the pot MIGHT be multiway (only tim knows how loose the table is), but his relative position sucks. you don't want to flop a set and not be able to raise for value.

if you're not comfortable cold-calling, then don't do it. but, it is certainly better than three-betting. that's just my entire point.

all i said was that i would fold in tim's spot, but folding runs close in value to cold-calling, mostly dependent on how you play postflop and how the villian plays postflop. so, if tim decides that folding is leaving money on the table, cold-calling is far better than three-betting.

aseem

maybe you should reread the original post, one limper before the preflop raiser.

look, if we were button, UTG raised and someone cold-called, this is a clear cold-call. it's the same number of limpers, but both our relative and absolute position make our hand's value shoot way up.

here, you can have even two or three limpers and cold-calling becomes better than folding, but it's still not completely awesome because of our relative position.

with one limper, it's decently close enough, and i tend to fold it because the relative position sucks. with two limpers behind the raiser, i'd go ahead and call. with three, it becomes clear.

of course, this is generalizing a lot because as i said this depends a lot on how everyone is postflop.

aseem