Who else is betting on Boston later?

Boston's going to lose, but there is such thing as an off topic section.

My predictiom
Final score
Boston6 Yankess 3

Big Poppi MVP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Wait who came through yesterday? I forgot...was it Ortiz or Arod??? :-)

Ortiz sucks. He doesnt even compare to Arod. A few more RbI's lower BA and less HR. And he a DH. hes a joke

AL East Champs baby! WOOOO!
Whos ur daddy now boston?

1 hr more big deal. It's all about when you get the RBI's and homeruns. He has more game tying and put ahead rbi's than anyone this year. Arod gets alot of his when the Yankees are up big with no pressure. Sheffield is more of a MVP for that team than AROD.

i hope your kidding...i dont even like the red sox and this is an ignorant statement. ortiz might be one of the best clutch hitters in the history of the game and he's only been doing it for 3 years. you can say what you want about Arod but calling Ortiz a joke is one of the dumbest things ive seen on this board

and if anyone is thinking of taking boston, it's probably a good bet. just remember, millions of other people will be thinking the same thing, and vegas is well aware of this.

bet on the saints today if you want to win some money

Dont get me wrong, he is a great clutch hitter. But, he doesnt deserve the MVP, hes a DH. I think that an MVP should help there team in every aspect of the game. Arod is probable the best 3rd basemen in the game and combined with his hitting i think its an easy choice.

ortiz is a great player and a fantastic hitter. in fact, he's probably the second most valuable player in the AL. i dislike arod quite a bit, but no denying he is the most valuable player. and i know its supposed to be MVP of his team, but i think past years have shown us that clearly is not the case (see: Arod winning MVP on last place team)

Arod can field, run, and hit. Ortiz can only hit. Take your pick.

Yeah wow Boston's -225 on Bodog right now...

Have to go with A-Rod. He makes clutch steals, and his fielding down the stretch when the Yankees needed to scrape out wins is definitely part of the reason that the Yankees came back from such a horrendous start. Ortiz is a good clutch hitter, but you can't deny that Rodriguez makes his presence felt in the game regardless of where he is on the field. An MVP should be the person who is most skilled in all facets of bringing the team to victory, be it Gold Glove caliber fielding, crucial steals to get into scoring position, and great hitting.

Dont get you wrong? You said he sucks, and hes a joke. Then you backpedaled and said hes a great clutch hitter. How could anyone get you wrong? You don't even know what your own opinion is.

watch your step

White Sox will beat boston so it won't matter...

[quote="mcpickl"][quote=Luv2Gamble][quote=AllenRay4][quote=Luv2Gamble]Ortiz sucks. He doesnt even compare to Arod. A few more RbI's lower BA and less HR. And he a DH. hes a joke[/quote]

i hope your kidding...i dont even like the red sox and this is an ignorant statement. ortiz might be one of the best clutch hitters in the history of the game and he's only been doing it for 3 years. you can say what you want about Arod but calling Ortiz a joke is one of the dumbest things ive seen on this board

and if anyone is thinking of taking boston, it's probably a good bet. just remember, millions of other people will be thinking the same thing, and vegas is well aware of this.

bet on the saints today if you want to win some money[/quote]

Dont get me wrong, he is a great clutch hitter. But, he doesnt deserve the MVP, hes a DH. I think that an MVP should help there team in every aspect of the game. Arod is probable the best 3rd basemen in the game and combined with his hitting i think its an easy choice.[/quote]

Dont get you wrong? You said he sucks, and hes a joke. Then you backpedaled and said hes a great clutch hitter. How could anyone get you wrong? You don't even know what your own opinion is.




As an MVP candidate he is a joke. his name should not even be brought up. He doesnt deserve it, he dosent even deserve the coverage they give him for a run at the MVP. That doesnt mean hes not a good clutch hitter, its just very ridiuclous to think of him as an MVP. He is a DH!!!


Good hitter terrible athlete. It is a JOKE even considering him as an MVP candidate.

The White Sox will be out in 4 games. They just aren't as good as the Angels, Red Sox, or Yankees.

The Blue Jays are better

Haha...the Bluejays suck.

[quote="Luv2Gamble"][quote=mcpickl][quote=Luv2Gamble][quote=AllenRay4][quote=Luv2Gamble]O
rtiz sucks. He doesnt even compare to Arod. A few more RbI's lower BA and less HR. And he a DH. hes a joke[/quote]

i hope your kidding...i dont even like the red sox and this is an ignorant statement. ortiz might be one of the best clutch hitters in the history of the game and he's only been doing it for 3 years. you can say what you want about Arod but calling Ortiz a joke is one of the dumbest things ive seen on this board

and if anyone is thinking of taking boston, it's probably a good bet. just remember, millions of other people will be thinking the same thing, and vegas is well aware of this.

bet on the saints today if you want to win some money[/quote]

Dont get me wrong, he is a great clutch hitter. But, he doesnt deserve the MVP, hes a DH. I think that an MVP should help there team in every aspect of the game. Arod is probable the best 3rd basemen in the game and combined with his hitting i think its an easy choice.[/quote]

Dont get you wrong? You said he sucks, and hes a joke. Then you backpedaled and said hes a great clutch hitter. How could anyone get you wrong? You don't even know what your own opinion is.




As an MVP candidate he is a joke. his name should not even be brought up. He doesnt deserve it, he dosent even deserve the coverage they give him for a run at the MVP. That doesnt mean hes not a good clutch hitter, its just very ridiuclous to think of him as an MVP. He is a DH!!!


Good hitter terrible athlete. It is a JOKE even considering him as an MVP candidate.[/quote]

Ahem. you wrote that he sucks.

Sorry, you can not be taken seriously.

Good bye.

Wow, i misunderstood this whole post. I thought we were talking about MVP for the season, not MVP for yesterdays game. ARods clutch solo homer in the fifth extendind the Yankees lead from 6-2 to 7-2, made him much more valuable than Ortiz. Yesterday.

how great of a defender was jason giambi when he won the mvp? how about when mo vaughn won it? or when frank thomas won it? or every time a pitcher has ever won it?

by definition ortiz should be the mvp, the mvp award is not about being the best all around player, or even being the best player, its about being the MOST VALUABLE PLAYER to your team, Ortiz has carried the Red Sox to a ton of huge wins this year, just like he did last year, many more than A rod has

Here is what sucks: Boston Red Sox vs. New York Yankees. Neither team has a shot at the World Series this year, or for many years afterwards. They suck. Go White Sox, Angels, Braves, hell, GO PADRES!11111111111

I'm not even going to attempt to show that ARod is actually a below average third baseman because even though there are stats to back me up, they will fall on deaf ears here. For me, this is the most telling comparison between Ortiz and ARod.

Batting by Game Run Margin, through Sept. 14*

--------- David Ortiz ---------
Margin PA BA OBP SA OPS
1 – 2 261 .318 .418 .701 1.119
3 to 5 232 .318 .422 .552 .974
6 or more 153 .231 .320 .515 .835


------- Alex Rodriguez ---------
PA BA OBP SA OPS
248 .255 .347 .463 .810
237 .323 .447 .599 1.046
148 .420 .486 .809 1.295

*From Eric Van over at the SoSH forum.

So, quite clearly, ARod disappears in close games and is a monster in blowouts. Ortiz is the opposite.

When deciding MVP, consider where the teams would be without each player. The Sox would be screwed without Ortiz, because you lose not only his production, but it hurts Manny's production as well.

The arguments that he doesn't play defense are not valid because ARod is a below average third baseman. He's nine runs worse than a replacement with a terrible range factor. (Like I said, I'm not going to produce the stats here....but you can find them on this page: http://sonsofsamhorn.net/index.php?showtop...opic=458&st=220)

Even if he was a good fielder, it needs to be taken into account that because Ortiz has been so clutch, he's been much better than his stats indicate:

"A more sophisticated approach is to measure the run value of every single PA. When you do this for Ortiz, you discover that he's been 16 runs better than you'd expect from a guy with his stat line."

(Also from Eric Van)

Finally, I love how Luv2Gamble brings up batting average. The difference is entirely singles, and it's a meaningless stat to begin with.

Well put...and don't forget Canseco.

I am vaguely familiar with some of the more indepth stats that you are discussing. Clearly you know what you're talking about.

As a favour, who are some of the most underrated players in the league, given general views and your sabermetric (i think) approach. how do some of the Blue Jays young guns look? (Adams, Hill, Rios)

Well I looked up those three players and while their stats weren't too impressive, they are also very young, so it often takes a while for the statistics to catch up with a player's potential. The Jays impressed me this year. They always played the Sox tough.

Some players that are really good, but don't get that much attention include Jason Bay, David Wright, Nick Johnson (when he's healthy), and Chase Utley. As these guys get older, people will come to realize their skills...especially for the players in larger markets (Jason Bay may be toiling in obscurity for a while).

have fun flying out to anaheim yankees.

look out chicago, here we come! :-)

A-rod is not even an above average third baseman defensively. He is maybe the best OFFENSIVE third baseman around, but you're saying he is better than Ortiz because he plays the field. This might be true if he was stellar defensively, but he is not.

A-rod's fielding % at 3B this season is .971, for his career at 3B it's .968. This is very far from stellar.

Ortiz doesn't play 1B everyday because he doesn't have to, but his lifetime fielding % is .990. This season he is .976 in 82 chances, last season he was .986 in 278 chances. He has 18 career errors in 1774 chances. This says nothing about his range, but clearly he is a competent first baseman.

If Slappy McYankee was a great third baseman, then maybe I could see the MVP tipping in his favor. But he is below average, so please explain to me how this makes him MORE of an asset than somebody who plays DH.

For fielding they don't include diving in the percentage so I'm sure Arod has Ortiz in the diving catch category.

I'm sure he does too, because Ortiz plays DH. Duh. Doesn't change the fact that A-rod ain't anything special defending third base.

I started a new thread for the MVP discussion, complete with a poll.

Tim, I agree with your conclusion, but not entirely with how you get there.



He is certainly the best offensive third baseman around. No one else comes close. Of course, he'd be more valuable at shortstop where he actually would provide gold glove defense AND get the atrocious Derek Jeter out of the position. If he plays shortstop, I would have a much harder time backing David Ortiz.



Fielding percentage doesn't tell the whole story. If he's getting to scores more balls than other third basemen, he'd still be better even with a disproportionate amount of errors to go with it. Unfortunately for him, he isn't:

Range Factor and Zone Ratings for third basemen (bigger = better)

ARod: RF: 2.59 ZR: .730
Chavez: RF: 2.80 ZR: .813
Beltre: RF: 2.78 ZR: .798
Inge: RF: 3.25 ZR: .802




Nah, he sucks. Otherwise we wouldn't have had Millar in there so much. .976 For a first baseman is bad, bad, bad.

But yeah, I don't think ARod should be rewarded for playing a subpar third base.

I'm going to play the part of the obnoxious yankee fan now.

How could you call derek jeter atroicious? He is great at making the play in the hole and has made some of the most memorable defensive plays of all time, including the dive in the fenway park stands (more like a fall when he couldnt stop once he caught the ball) and cutting off the ball to throw out Jeremy Giambi. Derek Jeter is a great fielder, how dare you call him atrocious!!



(sw)

Haha....but he's got all the INTANGIBLES!