OK, as many of you know I'm been having a lot of trouble with my game lately, so I'm going to try out this posting hands thing... this one is from tonight.

First problem... where can I convert my pacific poker hands? The hand converter doesn't work for pacific so, you'll just have to muddle through it for now.

WE ARE NOT HERE TO DISCUSS PREFLOP PLAY ON THIS PARTICULAR HAND. If you want to weight in on that subject I've put a pole at the top. You can vote but there is no need to discuss that part of the hand any further. As you will see it's been beaten to death already. Let's try to focus on the post-flop play.


***** Pacific Hand History for Game 2025503746 *****
$5/$10 Limit Hold'em - *** 09 28 18:34:14 2005
Table Cosmopolitan (Real Money)
Seat 9 is the button
Total number of players : 10
Seat 10: SanchoHH ( $361.49 )
Seat 1: CRbomb ( $544 )
Seat 2: chuch211 ( $278.9 )
Seat 3: TexasWoo ( $592 )
Seat 4: mmmmm420 ( $164.5 )
Seat 5: roy46ca ( $168.5 )
Seat 6: Feldy10 ( $148.1 )
Seat 7: ddudley ( $210 )
Seat 8: hogrule ( $172.8 )
Seat 9: Toast001 ( $29.5 )

SanchoHH posts small blind [$2].
CRbomb posts big blind [$5].

** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to ddudley [ 10h Ks ]

chuch211 calls [$5].
TexasWoo calls [$5].
mmmmm420 calls [$5].
roy46ca folds.
Feldy10 folds.
ddudley calls [$5].
hogrule calls [$5].
Toast001 calls [$5].
SanchoHH raises [$8].
CRbomb calls [$5].
chuch211 calls [$5].
TexasWoo calls [$5].
mmmmm420 calls [$5].
ddudley calls [$5].
hogrule calls [$5].
Toast001 calls [$5].

The 2 players behind me are the 2 worst players at the table and are both very likely to play no matter what action I take. The blinds are the 2 tightest players at the table and are not going to raise in an 7-8 way pot unless they have AA, KK or QQ. When I limped I was 90% sure I would end up 7-8 way unraised.

VP$IP:
hogrule = 57% in 36 hands
Toast001 = 72% in 125 hands
SanchoHH = 8.2% in 61 hands
CRbomb = 27% in 195 hands but seems to be playing much tighter in this session


** Dealing Flop ** [ 6c, 10s, 6s ]

SanchoHH bets [$5].
CRbomb folds.
chuch211 calls [$5].
TexasWoo calls [$5].
mmmmm420 raises [$10].

If my reads are correct at the point, SanchoHH (TPP) has an over pair of some sort, he might have A-K but I doubt it. Mmmmm420 (SLAP) has a 6 or at least he's representing a 6. It's possible he has a 10 or is just making a move on a really big pot cause he thinks he can move Sancho off his overpair and is assuming everone will fold behind him. I'm not really worried about anyone else having a better hand at this point. In fact I'm pretty sure Tweedle Dee and Tweedle Dumb will both call again with no pair and no draw.

ddudley calls [$10].
hogrule calls [$10].
Toast001 calls [$10].
SanchoHH calls [$5].
chuch211 folds.
TexasWoo calls [$5].

I was playing at a fast table (12 seconds to act) so I didn't have time to calculate all the pot odds and implied odds but it seemed like an ok call at the time, based on the fact the pot was going to be at least $130 after this round of betting.

Now that I've had time to look it up and think about the hand I think I needed 22-1 to take one card off with 2 outs left in the deck. So, in retropect I'm pretty sure it was a bad call. Anyone disagree? What about the 3 other Ks? Should I count those or not? If we are counting 5 outs then I needed 9-1 to take one card off and I was getting at least 12-1 at the time of my call and it turned out better than that at 14.5-1.


EDIT: I moved this stuff up from a lower post because I thought it was important stuff to be thinking about:

It all comes down to how many if any of the K out I can count. That all depends on the accuracy of my reads on mmmmm420. Let's say 70% he has a 6, 15% he has a 10 with a lower kicker, 5% he has a 10 with an A kicker and 10% he's making a move on a big pot with 2 over cards like K-J or Q-J. So let say there is a 30% chance the K's are good outs.

So lets count 1 of 3 K's as good that gives me 1 K and 2 10s for 3 outs and around 15:1 so maybe I'm getting implied odds to take 1 card off?

With the above assumptions there is a 20% chance I'd be splitting the pot with mmmmm420. The is also some small chance, say 10%, that Sancho has K-K. Those 2 assumptions are not accounted for at this point.

Given that the pot is huge and you hold the Ks I'd be in raise or fold mode. I think 3 betting here is best if you think the CO and button are likely to fold.

Wow Dudley... This hand sucks...

Given your reads.. if they're accurate, you want to fold.

If you might be wrong... Calling a small bet in a huge pot is never very wrong, that's one way to look at it.

Ok, I have some questions/comments.

1. Why are you limping with K10 offsuit? Blech. Personally, the only thing I'll do with that hand is raise in very late position if there is only one or two limpers before me.

2. How do you read the SB for an overpair or AK? Is he really just completing with that preflop?

3. You need to reraise that flop if you're going to keep playing. Get some information, get rid of some overcards, etc.

Definitely some serious leaks being shown in this hand alone. KT offsuit, limping with this hand is not exactly ideal without good position. It's an easily dominated hand and if it's not suited, you have no flush potential either.

Your flop play is either a re-raise or fold, there's no such thing as a call here. If you think you have the best hand, you raise, otherwise fold. I'd defintely lean towards folding, if your behind here, your in very bad shape and drawing extremely slim. I also think your probably way behind here.

1. I limp with this hand cause it sucks and I knew it was going to be a big multi-way pot. Usually if I raise I get called by a hand that has K-10 dominated then I flop top pair and lose a lot of money. I'm really looking to flop an OESD or fold.

2. The small blind is very tight and raised in what he knew was going to be an 7-8 way pot. What would you put him on?

3. I was pretty sure I was in 3rd place at the time and needed a 10 to win. I guess if I'm going ot take 2 cards off I need 11-1 to call. I knew I'd have more than that in the pot when the flop betting was done.

he raised.

aseem

this is the best reply, dudley.

aseem

my bad...misread

Definately fold...I meant raise only if there is very little action to you (one limper maybe) and you are CO or button. That's pretty standard.

This hand sucks because I played it so poorly or it's a tough decision?

Based on the way the rest of the hand played out, I'm pretty sure my reads were 100% accurate. But, at the time there is no way I can know that and you should never assume your reads are 100% accurate. At the time I was thinking there was some chance that my K outs were good. Wheather I should count that as 0, 1 , 2 or 3, I didn't know.

Here's a reconstruction of my thought process:

I'm playing another table at the same time so I don't really know how much is in the pot right now but I know it's big and going to get a lot bigger by the end of this round. I'm pretty sure I don't have the best hand, so raising would be pretty dumb. I'm 90% sure Sancho has an overpair. I now have 5 seconds left to act... and at this point I have to press a button or time is going to run out.

If I had 5 minutes to make a decision it would have gone something like this. It all comes down to how many if any of the K out I can count. That all depends on the accuracy of my reads on mmmmm420. Let's say 70% he has a 6, 15% he has a 10 with a lower kicker, 5% he has a 10 with an A kicker and 10% he's making a move on a big pot with 2 over cards like K-J or Q-J. So let say there is a 30% chance the K's are good outs.

So lets count 1 of 3 K's as good that gives me 1 K and 2 10s for 3 outs and around 15:1 so I'm getting implied odds to take 1 card off.

With the above assumptions there is a 20% chance I'd be splitting the pot with mmmmm420. The is also some small chance, say 10%, that Sancho has K-K. Those 2 assumptions are not accounted for at this point.

The bottom line is there is no human on the face of the earth that could account for all of these variables in 12 seconds while playing another table at the same time. It felt wrong to raise based on that fact that either Sancho or mmmmm420 has me beat. It felt right to make the call based on 2-5 outs and a huge pot.

So what do you do with K-10o when 3 people have limped in front of you? fold?

The 2 players behind me are the 2 worst players at the table and are both very likely to play no matter what action I take. The blinds are the 2 tightest players at the table and are not going to raise in an 7-8 way pot unless they have AA, KK or QQ. When I limped I was 90% sure I would end up 7-8 way unraised.

Based on that information is this still a bad limp?

this information makes a lot of other hands playable, like Q9s, J8s, 86s, K4s, etc.

it still doesn't make KTo that good from MP3.

aseem

Aseem,

I repect your opinion so I want to make sure I understand what you are saying. You would have limped or folded preflop?

You cannot call pre-flop here. I don't really care how bad the two behind me are, if I am entering this pot it is for a raise when I am two off the button. I want option of first action on the flop that also has a chance to complete the action. A SB re-raise really puts me on the defensive, but if I did raise this pot, was re-raised by the SB and saw this flop, I would also raise the flop. Both time, you had raise or fold options. Calling the worst choice in both scenarios.

K-10 off is just too hard to win without thinning the opponents when you have a decent chance to. In fact the SB three-betting (if you raised) AK is the best thing that can happen for your hand here. SB three bets, clears a little field, continues out on the flop with ace high and you get to raise with top pair.

BUT, if I were playing here I probably would've dropped the K-10 pre-flop.

He is saying to fold preflop.

Would a VP$IP of 73% and 57% change your mind? I'm 90% sure that if I raise they both will call. I never raise with K-10 unless I'm 90% sure I'll be last to act of the flop. We are a long way from that here.

Listen up people, this is the last discussion about preflop play I'm going to read. WE ARE NOT HERE TO DISCUSS PREFLOP PLAY ON THIS PARTICULAR HAND. If you want ot weight in on that subject I've put a pole at the top. You can vote but there is no need to discuss. This post is to discuss the flop play ONLY.

Is your name Aseem?

He said it isn't that good, meaning not optimal, meaning he would most likely fold it.

Can you read? He said that the information you had makes some hands playable, but NOT KTo. I'm not seeing what you don't understand.

Anyways, I'll quote jay who said it best about the flop play:

Your name still isn't aseem. Why don't you run along and bother someone else?

I have no problem with the PF limp at all. shit, I'm doing it. I think not raising PF is smart because with the idiot twins behind you raising will just bloat the pot, cause they will call.

as to the flop play, you have to fold this. I don't see you being ahead here enough to consider three betting and calling just sucks. I'm folding and moving onto the next hand

Right, that was my interpretation of his post as well. I'm asking him to make a decision... There is no "probably fold" button at Empire.

Thanks for the blunt advice. I think I'm going to have to agree with you. JWeb says you play for a living too. I'll try to send you an AIM later today.

Oh my god. Do you really need aseem to post the following on this thread:

FOLD PREFLOP

for you to get it?

You know, with a six hour flight you could just find him in person. Maybe he'd let you suck on his nuts for a while in exchange for more clear explanations of simple poker strategies.

But maybe I did misinterperet his comments. I doubt it, but it's possible. I'll tell you what...I'll pitch in $5 for your plane ticket to Boston...and I'll even ask him personally if he'll let you slob his knob.

Ok, this is my last post on this thread, because I'm kind of being an ass.

If you didn't know to fold this on the flop, you aren't good enough to be limping with KTo. Seriously. KDawg is very aggressive and very good. You obviously aren't at that level (neither am I), so you should be tighter preflop IMO.

Sorry if I was an asshole.

With 3 people limping in front of you, it might make KT offsuit marginally playable, but still not exactly desireable. It doesn't exactly play well multi-way unless it's suited.

But anyways back to the flop play, if you use your own read of what hands the sb was willing to raise with pre-flop, you've got your answer as to whether you continue with this hand post-flop.

You were an A-hole in this thread, glad you realized it, before it was too late.

You have no idea how good I am. FYI, I've made almost 50K in 2005 despite playing like crap and getting horrible cards for the majority of the last 5 months. Even during this "bad period" I'm up $3600.

Don't you think my read of mmmmm420 is equally if not more important? I've easily got pot odds to draw to 5 outs. To me, it's a question of, what if I hit a K and still lose to trip 6's?

I think you are miscalculating how good ddudley is dude. thank you for the complement, but I think telling him that he isn't at x level is out of line

i think everyone on this thread has blown this out of proportion and is making way too big a deal out of it.

to answer your question, i fold this preflop.

that may just be personal preference, though. i have a genuine dislike for little offsuit broadway hands (KTo, QJo, QTo, JTo, and to a lesser extent, ATo and KJo, and to an even smaller extent AJo and KQo).

the thing is, these hands really don't do well multiway unless they flop a good straight draw. flopping a pair with these hands multiway is just pretty weak. on the other hand, these hands don't do that well heads-up or shorthanded either, because you're easily dominated or just simply an underdog.

so, i do fold in your spot preflop. in the CO or on the button, i would tend to play it.

that said, it's really fairly close/borderline and doesn't make much of a difference either way. what's important, though, is that you can play well postflop. the better you are postflop, the looser you can play preflop to some extent.

what people are really failing to focus on is flop play.

i genuinely dislike your cold-call on the flop. either you feel you have the best hand, or you are drawing. if you have the best hand, you should be three-betting this right away--OR you could wait for the turn to raise, but it seems like you didn't do that (i would argue this isn't the best spot to do it, but that's not the point).

on the other hand, if you feel you are drawing, what are you drawing to?

if SB has an overpair, you could be drawing to two outs (tens), or maybe five outs if your K outs are good. but the guy to your right just raised! do you feel you have him beat? if so, do you still have SB beat?

here's where postflop play becomes very important.

if you have a read that you have the raiser beat, you should be three-betting this right away. you REALLY want to knock out SB in case he has you beat. this is where aggressive play in big pots becomes key--imagine your huge equity spike when you make a better hand fold and isolate a worse one!

on the other hand, if you feel that the raiser has you beat, you are really drawing very slim. if he has a 6, you're drawing to two outs at best, and those two outs could easily chop the pot against another 10-x, which means you really have only one effective out. the only time you can draw correctly to your K is when SB has QQ or worse AND when the raiser has specifically A-10.

so should you continue here?

here is where pot size matters a lot. i don't know if you were keeping track of the pot or not (it doesn't seem like it), but you should *REALLY* (i can't stress this enough) get in the habit of keeping a running pot count in any hand you play.

and i don't mean money, i mean bets. small bets, big bets. of course, at $5/$10, money is also conveninent, since $120 is 12 big bets or 24 small bets. i realize this is a turbo table, but it's really no excuse. i play pacific's turbo tables a lot and easily keep track.

so, i'll count it up for you real quick.

eight-way flop for two small bets each. 16 small bets in the pot.

bet, call, call, raise, that's five additional small bets. you can be pretty sure the three players before the raise will contribute a small bet each, so that's eight small bets total.

so your total pot odds are 24-to-2 or 12-to-1. with five outs, you should continue. with two, you shouldn't, especially since those two might be chops.

so here's where your read becomes important. sorry i haven't really completely read every post in this thread so i'm not sure what exactly your reads were besides what you wrote in your OP, so i'll say this:

1. if you feel you have the best hand, either three-bet right away. your hand isn't strong enough to wait for the turn, clearly.

2. if you feel you have the raiser beat but don't have SB beat, three-bet right away or wait for the turn to raise. this is very attractive since it's a big pot, so making a better hand fold--and isolating a worse hand in the process--is a giant coup. also, this is nice since i think you mentioned somewhere that the preflop raiser is tight and very well might fold to two cold on the turn.

3. if you feel you are beat by the raiser, you should fold this, whether you have SB beat or not. if you are drawing live to kings, you are not drawing live to tens (they will chop). if you are not drawing live to kings, you are drawing very slim to tens. even in this big pot, continuing is probably an error.

ALL THAT SAID:

without reads, i routinely three-bet this. when the decision is close and you're unsure, err towards continuing in big pots.

i tend to "decide" that i can push SB off a better hand somehow and get myself heads-up with another 10-x (which, statistically, is most often paired with a kicker worse than K).

if i lose a few extra bets to 6-x or A-10, so be it. it's worth it in this big pot, since the whole idea is that this play doesn't have to work often at all to show a big profit.

if i had a better read on the SB and the raiser and felt i was good against the raiser but behind SB, i would argue that a cold-call is best and you should do it so that you can raise the turn and make SB face two cold.

here, you need a solid read to cold-call profitably. a REALLY solid one.

without that, i three-bet or fold. since you have some decent read on the SB or the raiser or both has/have you beat, i would fold this flop.

it's close, dudley. don't sweat it.

aseem

wow, sorry for the book-long reply, lol.

i can summarize:

1. without reads, i three-bet this.

2. it takes a very solid specific read to cold-call, and it can only be done with the specific intention of raising almost any turn.

3. with your read, i would fold the flop.

aseem

Yeah, I was an A-hole...but you weren't much better.

Anyways, look back at this thread objectively. Whenever someone disagreed with your moves, you argued. When KDawg said he agreed, you thanked him for the "blunt advice" and said you would AIM him. To be honest, it looks like all you are looking more for validation than honest criticism. Take a step back and you'll see that you need to be more open minded...and now it makes sense that you didn't understand what Aseem was saying (probably because you were having trouble seeing that he disagreed with your limp). I'm not trying to be a jerk in this post, I'm calling it like I see it.

Congrats on a good year.

Fair enough. Lol, I'm at work during the day and have a tendency to be a dick if I'm in a bad mood. And I just posted again...let's hope he doesn't take it too seriously.

Now I'm really done. Sorry all. I'll leave the drama in General.

Hope to see all of you at the strat table tonight...I'm poppin' my cherry!

Thank you. I apoligize if I was being an A-hole. I do have problems with taking criticism too personally. I'm trying ot work on that.

I don't totally agree with KDawgs advice on the flop. But I see where he's coming from... trust your reads, stay away from marginal calls and move on to the next hand.

why is this thread so long?

limping preflop is debatable. i usually fold KT unless i'm in CO or Button. i'm sure others can play it profitably in large pots.

raise or fold the flop. don't call.

j web said that calling a small bet in a big pot can't be a big mistake, but it can be costly relative to raising, which increases your chances of winning significantly.

i think the pot is big enough and you are ahead enough to 3-bet the flop and reevaluate on the turn based on how many players hang around etc.

Why? Don't play the hand then there is nothing to friggin' talk about post flop.

And no it wouldn't change my mind. I want them out no matter what they have if I am in the pot. Bad thinking.

I will shutup now about pre-flop and not respond anymore because that is the primary discussion.

I'm sorry, but this is a rather dumb stance to take on it PF. this isn't that much of a mistake, if a mistake at all. In fact, its probably a neutral ev limp, to be honest, and yet way too many people are focusing on it. THe key to neutral or slightly -ev plays is to play superior postflop poker. Personally, I don't shy from these situations with position, which the hero has here(essentially, cause we have the dumdum twins behind us). Being a good player requires you to play under these circumstances