now was this hand ever a donk play be me? I AIMed an FCP'er. who is clearly jealous of me, just to let him know about the hand. He suddenly tells me I'm a donk and a troll for raising preflop with 7-5s and for betting out the flop..ect, ect. I suddenly realize he is also a weak tight player just by his words.

the fcp member= patricz aka patrickjohson5 on AIM


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I'm sitting at a 6 handed table on Pokershare.

200 max buy in with 1-2blinds ::This is NO LIMIT::

I have around 260 or so, with a few other players having similar stacks sizes. the table ofcourse is tight-aggressive with a loose player to right. Remember, this is a short-handed table, so there's a lot more blind stealing and bluffing going on. My style of play is def. more aggressive than the normal player and love suited connectors since in NL games, if played right, those hands are def. +EV when you hit your hand. I never really post strategy here since ehhh too lazy

anyways, this hand, I was up against a tight player who bet too small and allowed draws to catch up while getting good odds.

I was in the cutoff seat with 7-5 suited ::1 before the button for the newbs that don't know:::. everyone folded to me, and I raise it to 7 ::standard preflop raise for my table:: to try to steal the blinds, and if someone calls, i have a good hand. if i don't hit, it's easy to throw away and i only lose 7 dollars. only the small blind with a similar stack calls.

pot= 16 dollars

the flop comes: 4 6 K rainbow

so I have an open ended straight draw. the SB checks. I decided to make a standard bet ::15 dollars::: on the flop since I raised pf just to win the pot right there, and if he calls, I have a nice draw that might get paid off. He raises me the minimun, of 15 more ::30 total:: so the pot has 46 dollars now and its 15 more for me to call. So i'm getting little over 3-1 on my call, plus implied odds make this hand very very dreamy since I put him on a king. I call. the odds you need for an open-ended straight draw are around 2.12-1. so i clearly had to call to see the turn card.


pot= 76 dollars


turn: 3 ::money card::

he leads out with a 60 dollar bet and I decide just to call since theirs no flush draw out there.

total pot= 196

river= Ace

I didn't like this card since this might scare him off if he had a king, but he ended up pushing all in for a total of 175 or so. I end up calling ofcourse since he had me slighty covered and end up winning a pot over 500 dollars. he had AKs

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if you ever play short-handed tables, a lot of preflop raising goes on, a lot fo bluffing goes on. If anyone who player tight will basically get killed in those games since aggression is the key to success playing NL above 1-2 at the short-handed players.

I thought I played the hand pretty good. well actually, the hand played out itself since it wasn't really hard to play. I was getting correct odds to call the flop bet ::3-1:: plus implied odds with those hands were really high he probably wouldnt read me for low cards since in that sesssion, I didn't show any showdowns that I won.

just curious to what everyone else thinks about this hand and how it went down. If you ever want to play against me heads up or join me at the short handed tables on UB...come and join me. I like talking to FCP members while I play


teneight

i really want people to let me know if i made a donk move by raising preflop, betting out on the flop, calling the min. reraise on the flop..anything because patriczjohnson ::fcp member I use to talk to on AIM after he went off on me after when i told him about this hand::: said i played the hand horrible. he called me a troll and a donk for making such a play preflop and flop. ehhh it was probably him who had the AKs and I busted him..sorry patricz, no hard feelings douche

I seriously see this as a very standard short-handed nl play in cash games. if you have ever played at those tables, you'll know what i'm talking about


teneight

i dont really play shorthanded nl cash, so I cant comment on whether stealing with 75 suited makes sense or not, I don't think I would do it, since you're risking $7 to win the $3 in the pot preflop, knowing that if you get called you are almost surely behind. Once you commit yourself to raising preflop you need to bet that flop, and calling his reraise is an easy call, since minimum reraise usually indicates a monster hand, and a big pot for you if you hit your card. I think your post flop play is fine, though I wouldn't have made the the preflop raise

Wow teneight's in strat...

:shock:

it's not just about stealing, it's also giving me an aggressive player image. I want to get paid off when I get good hands ::AA, KK, QQ, AK:::
raising in good position, with pretty good/playable hands gives you that image.

btw, I wouldn't always bet the flop, because I really haven't commited myself just by raising pf. that's when reading the player comes into play. depending on my read,my hand and the flop, I will decide if it's likely that I could steal this pot by bluffing or semi-bluffing


teneight

sure you arent commited to the pot because you preflop raisesd, but thats a very good flop for your hand, why give him a free card incase he has some sort of middle ace or jt or something like that where he will probably fold to a decent sized bet, and if he calls you still have outs

I didn't give him a free card. I bet close to the pot since I had a nice draw.
Patricz :e fcp member who went off on me::: said it was a horrible bet..haha..he's a weak player btw


teneight

yeah, i know u raised the flop, and i agree with that play. but in one of your earlier posts you said that you wouldn't always bet this flop, and unless I had a really good read on the other player i would bet this flop every time

well i bet pot around 85% if I raised PF and it got checked to me

The actual odds for the NEXT CARD to fill your straight is 4.75 to 1. It's only ~2.2 to 1 if you KNOW you can see the the river card for free. Sometimes I would've raised to $150 on the turn, and sometimes I would've smooth called.

I normally like to play my draws (more often open-ended straights than flushes) more aggressively, but usually not in this situation because:

1) most people can't get away from top pair, strong kicker in a 1-2 NL game, especially considering it was a short-handed game.

2) he represented a strong hand by going for the check-raise and minimum raise on the flop.

I don't know the hand history between the two of you, but I assume he was thinking more about how to get his hand paid off and less about how strong his hand was relative to your hand or how to protect his hand. He played his hand extremely poorly on the flop. I thought he should've led out with a reasonable bet, but if he KNEW you were going bet the flop based on your hand history, he should've raised much more than the minimum raise (to $45-60 instead of $30).

If I don't think there's a good chance to push him off of his hand on the flop, I would generally call if I'm getting 3 to 1 pot odds or better on my straight or flush draw and he still has a good amount of chips I could win from him.

I thought you played the hand extremely well. This might be an issue of debate, but I would be careful not to become too predictable against better opponents by leading out at practically every hand on the flop that you raised with pre-flop. In live games, a move I LOVE to make often from the blinds is to call an opponent who opened from middle or late position with any two cards, and if I think the flop didn't help him based on physical tells, I'll bet into him on the flop. This of course works best against the "Super System players" who habitually bet the flop after raising pre-flop if checked to, and fold (instead of playing back) if bet into unless the flop helps them (which it won't 2/3 of the time).

I'd raise the turn. Flat calling a 60$ bet with no draws on the board is absurdly suspicious.

fine i'l debate with you here.

The sb made a donk move because with AK in a short handed game he is a huge fav. with what looks like a steal from the Button, i would have raised 20 over teneight.

Teneight then folds.

see. simple

Yes, you are right. That is a much better play.

I don't think anyone is arguing that Teneight should not have made the steal attempt if he had known the players cards, but after preflop you can't fault him for how he played it except for perhaps the previously stated 2/3 the pot bet instead of a full pot bet.

In poker we make money by our opponents making mistakes. We aren't debating that, are we?

i make money by playing you.. ohh. in yo face.. hurts dont it.. :dance: :dance:

ahh guinevar, hows bible study?. no seriously. i'm genuinely asking how you're doing.

remember when we had our avatar tiff, and then you got pwned, but we laughed it off, and now we are closer than ever.

i remember. :-)

just remember, fire hazard safety is no joke, know all your exits and never ever open a door unless you check to see if its hot first.

love you

Haha. I am having a little trouble determining the tone of the response, so I'll respond to it seriously.

Bible study is great, it is tonight and every Wednesday. I lead music these days and that is a difficult thing to prepare each week.

I remember the whole avatar tiff. :-) Some of the avatars these days are far worse than yours so I patiently wait until I can block avatars. Anyone ever go back and read their old posts? I do it sometimes. I have learned a lot about poker here to say the least.

Thanks for the encouraging safety tips. Be sure to buckle up, yourself.

-Neal

No i was serious. ok the last part wasnt, but the over all feel was legit.

You're like the Neal Diamond of bible study now. hehe. i kid i kid.

ya old posts are great. you're quality in my books babe

Thanks, Royal. Post some more in strat, this is the place to be.

teneight


Personally I love the play. I did similar thing in a NL $1/$2 game a few nights ago.

3 players limped in front of me for $2, I raised to $10 (standard at this game) from the button and got 2 callers with 9 8 .

Flop came down 9-7-9 and I got paid off after someone moved in on the turn and I called, he was holding 10-8 and I doubled up.


The way I see it is, if players are not showing strength and I am in position I will make a play with connecting cards. You get paid off really big and you can also get away from your hand if you miss, your not married to it like K-K, Q-Q, J-J and overcards hit the flop and you feel disgusted your big pair just got beat by a weak ace.

ty, someone who actually knows what they are talking about


teneight

the only donk move was not raising on the turn, because he check raised you on the flop and then led out on the turn you get a call 90% of the time, assuming you were telling the truth about your table image in this session.

This hand was beautifully played. When you raise pre-flop, nobody puts you on 7/5, so if you hit you are busting someone. Smooth calling the turn was a fine move, because it made your opponent believe that you were weak.

Pre-flop raise: If in good position, a good play.

Betting the flop: Also good. You are usually taking the pot down there if he doesn't have the king, or seeing a free river card if he just calls. If you hit your straight and he is holding a big king, you are busting him more often than not.

Turn: Great. Smooth calling was the perfect move here. You showed weakness, which enticed your opponent to push you over on the river with his 2-pair.

Overall, this was a wonderfully played hand, and a perfect example of how mixing up your pre-flop raises can really pay off when your rags turn into gold. Wonderfully played pot, teneight. This is a perfect example of why suited connectors are one of my favorite hands to play. As long as you make sure that you only raise with suited connectors sparingly, you will get payed off handsomely when somebody hits top pair and you hit a low-card monster. Brilliant job.