***** Hand History for Game 2770389767 *****
$25 PL Omaha Hi/Lo - Saturday, September 24, 23:06:02 EDT 2005
Table Table 37592 (Real Money)
Seat 5 is the button
Total number of players : 10
Seat 1: r4d20 ( $24.63 )
Seat 2: allin311111 ( $66.62 )
Seat 3: DAVEET ( $98.23 )
Seat 4: AllYaCanEat ( $34.76 )
Seat 5: h00sierm0n ( $61.13 )
Seat 6: peacerules ( $46.77 )
Seat 7: lulu445 ( $24.25 )
Seat 8: Horny_Jen ( $15.42 )
Seat 9: ABOTIAMNOT ( $5 )
Seat 10: Abbaddabba ( $25.95 )
peacerules posts small blind [$0.10].
lulu445 is sitting out.
Horny_Jen posts big blind [$0.25].
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to Abbaddabba [ Ah 8h As 6s ]
ABOTIAMNOT folds.
lulu445 has left the table.
Abbaddabba calls [$0.25].
r4d20 folds.
allin311111 calls [$0.25].
DAVEET folds.
AllYaCanEat calls [$0.25].
h00sierm0n calls [$0.25].
peacerules calls [$0.15].
Horny_Jen checks.
** Dealing Flop ** [ 7s, 6h, Ad ]
>You have options at Table 37522 Table!.
peacerules bets [$0.35].
>You have options at Table 37522 Table!.
Horny_Jen folds.
Abbaddabba raises [$2.50].
allin311111 calls [$2.50].
AllYaCanEat folds.
h00sierm0n calls [$2.50].
peacerules calls [$2.15].
** Dealing Turn ** [ Qs ]
peacerules checks.
Abbaddabba bets [$10.95].
allin311111 calls [$10.95].
h00sierm0n calls [$10.95].
peacerules raises [$21.90].
>You have options at Table 37522 Table!.
Abbaddabba is all-In [$12.25]
allin311111 calls [$12.25].
h00sierm0n calls [$12.25].
>You have options at Table 37522 Table!.
>You have options at Table 37522 Table!.
Kharisma has joined the table.
peacerules raises [$2.60].
allin311111 calls [$1.30].
h00sierm0n is all-In [$35.18]
peacerules is all-In [$19.52]
allin311111 calls [$33.88].
** Dealing River ** [ 3h ]
peacerules shows [ Kh, 3c, Jh, 2c ] a pair of threes.
peacerules shows 7,6,3,2,A for low.
Abbaddabba shows [ Ah, 8h, As, 6s ] three of a kind, aces.
Abbaddabba shows 8,7,6,3,A for low.
allin311111 shows [ 4h, 2d, 5c, 8d ] a straight, three to seven.
allin311111 shows 6,4,3,2,A for low.
h00sierm0n shows [ 2h, 3d, Jc, 4d ] a pair of threes.
h00sierm0n shows 6,4,3,2,A for low.
allin311111 wins $14.36 from side pot #2 with a straight, three to seven.
h00sierm0n wins Lo ($7.18) from side pot #2 with 6,4,3,2,A.
allin311111 wins Lo ($7.18) from side pot #2 with 6,4,3,2,A.
allin311111 wins $31.23 from side pot #1 with a straight, three to seven.
h00sierm0n wins Lo ($15.61) from side pot #1 with 6,4,3,2,A.
allin311111 wins Lo ($15.62) from side pot #1 with 6,4,3,2,A.
allin311111 wins $50.65 from the main pot with a straight, three to seven.
h00sierm0n wins Lo ($25.32) from the main pot with 6,4,3,2,A.
allin311111 wins Lo ($25.33) from the main pot with 6,4,3,2,A.
>You have options at Table 37522 Table!.



I cant get the convertor to work, but you acn see how ****ed up it is.

Presumably you limped pre-flop hoping someone else would raise so you could reraise to thin the field?

Check/fold the flop - but if you can't bring yourself to do that then at least don't build the pot to give the freerollers more amunition to beat you with!

Remember, a set is only a draw to a full house, so by staying in, you are dawing for half the pot. :cry:

What? That makes absolutely no sense.

Why would i want to thin the field? I have an (extremely strong) high only hand. If there is a possible low, i likely have no shot at it if even 3 people see the flop. Dont i _want_ lots of people to be going for high? (since all of my potential draws create nut hands) ... and low? (since if there is a low out, im not going to win it anyways, i might as well have two people being quartered to my half pot in the even that i do take the high)



On the flop (given their hands, which covered basically every straight draw) i was 60% favorite to take the high, and had 30% equity (slightly more considering i can conceivably chop the low) while putting in only 25%. Ok, small equity edge, but i definitely have one and that's considering basically EVERY straight draw that could be out there, is. My equity on the turn is 33% while my put in is 25%. Slightly larger even still.

Im not saying it's good to be all in on the turn. Obviously these people would be willing to call off their whole stack with just the low unimproved, so ideally i pot it on the turn so that my river pot will have them just barely all-in. The fact that someone raised with _just_ the low (despite being 1/6thed at that point) is less than ideal for me, and had i known that he would have potted it, i would have check/called. It's not _bad_ for me though, per say. He's still pushing an equity edge... it's just not _as_ good as it would have been if he didnt raise. He's making me voluntarily put in the pot when i have a vulnerable (but favored) hand, when i can easily get called knowing that im 100% to win (and can easily fold if an obvious straight is out there) if he just calls.

Remember, these people putting all their money in on the flop...they already have the low. A 78, and all those people, at least two guaranteed to have low locked up. If the turn doesn't pair, i probably fold to an almost pot sized bet, unless it's a King or Queen (of your suit would be great), which don't really help the countless straight draws available.

[quote="Chamonyx"]Presumably you limped pre-flop hoping someone else would raise so you could reraise to thin the field?
quote]

This advice is good for higher limits, but I'd say try it once, and watch every limper call the pot sized bet of the villain and your repot...it's kind of comical in a way. Until you lose the hand, that is.

You have a mediocre 2 way hand. Your AA isn’t very strong for the high and you’re A6 can be a mediocre for the low if you can thin the field.

In a large field your hand is very weak however HU you beat everything but AA + a card lower then 6. Chamonyx was correctly suggesting that you want to get HU with this hand.

On the flop you need to check fold. The only reason to bet the flop is hoping to get everyone to fold and with the size of the field this is unlikely.

On the turn with 3 calls to your pot bet you need to know that you are only playing for ½ the pot and most likely you are free rolling someone. Check and hope that it checks around. If someone bets fold.

[quote="GooperMC"][quote]
You have a mediocre 2 way hand. Your AA isn’t very strong for the high and you’re A6 can be a mediocre for the low if you can thin the field.

In a large field your hand is very weak however HU you beat everything but AA + a card lower then 6. Chamonyx was correctly suggesting that you want to get HU with this hand.

On the flop you need to check fold. The only reason to bet the flop is hoping to get everyone to fold and with the size of the field this is unlikely.

On the turn with 3 calls to your pot bet you need to know that you are only playing for ½ the pot and most likely you are free rolling someone. Check and hope that it checks around. If someone bets fold.[/quote]

Goop, you do realize that hero flopped a set of aces and is now being offered 4.3:1 odds on the flop to draw to a full-house? It's only a draw to 1/2 the pot, but the odds look pretty good considering the implied odds if we can quarter some lows or find a sucker with a smaller full-house.

To the OP, raising the flop is pretty bad. You're just asking to get free-rolled. But if the villains are willing to offer you cheap odds to draw to a full house by all means accept their offer. It's a much closer decision if you're facing a larger pot-sized bet on the flop. In that case you may have to fold the flop and definitely the turn if you don't fill-up.

I dont understand folding the turn at all.

In a field of 4 where im at least 50% to make the nut high (very low estimate, and it turns out i was 66% to take the high), why would i ever be folding?

Im winning 33% of the pot on average and im putting in 25% of the value. For every dollar i put in, i make a profit of 33cents (or win 1.33), ignoring implied and reverse implied odds (which are another issue).

Why would you ever fold when you have a clear cut equity edge? (which you can be pretty sure that you do, even without a shot at the low)


... i can understand _not_ raising the flop though (and not potting the turn). Kind of a bad move, in hind sight, if only to keep implied odds very high (and reverse implied odds relatively low0, even at the expense of an equity edge. Folding in a 4 way pot with a high hand that strong though seems crazy.

Yes, PLO8 can be pretty counter-intuitive



Because you want to maximize your expected value from this hand. Your best hope in general to do this with this hand is by scooping or 3/4 one other player, or by putting them under so much pressure that they fold before showdown.



You may well do (I don't play high only, so I won't comment on this assertion). Go play hi only with it then. In Hi-Lo you have a definite trouble hand, amplified by the more players there are that see the flop.



The point is that there are hands that have low locked up who also have a draw for high - maybe with more outs than you on the flop. You are being free-rolled by these hands: They are bound to get some money back and may win it all. You may win half, but may lose everything you put in. Steve Badger's site www.playwinningpoker.com has a nice section on this that can explain it far better than me.



Against the actual hands you may have had a slight edge - but against many of the hands that could be driving the action you are in a horrible position.



I'm sorry, but all of the other 3 players belonged in the pot after the flop and turn and played it better than you, IMO:

Peacerules has nut low with draw for the high nuts (3 outs)
allin311111 has second low and a huge wrap for high (10 outs)
hoosiermon has uncounterfeitable nut low, and 4 players all-in, so he is probably getting his money back.

You had 6 outs on the flop for high, 3 of which were for the nuts. The turn helped you a lot, giving you the flush outs as well, but you are still really vulnerable: I wonder if you had checked the turn and the button had bet, if you re-reaised would both of the other players have called? Maybe, maybe not.

Thanks for posting the hand and engaging.

You're not at least 50% to make the *nut* high. Assuming the top full-house is the nuts, then you'll improve to the nuts about 20% of the time from the turn to the river (Also, I believe the 3 non-spade deuces will give you the nuts, although it's likely those cards aren't live). Otherwise, the other 80% of the time you'll have to wonder whether or not three aces is the best high hand. If the board doesn't pair, only the 3 non-spade deuces will prevent a straight from enabling. With that many opponents, it's reasonable to assume that you're going to need to improve to win the high, if so you'll only do so about 20% of the time.

I think you're being overly optimistic, but after thinking about it it might be more close to being EV neutral or only slightly negative. With 4 people all-in, there wil be ~ $100 in the pot. Half of that pot is $50. Of which you put your whole stack of about $25 into the pot hoping to win $50. That's about 2:1 on your money. Will your high hand be best ~ 33% of the time? We know you'll win with a FH 20% of the time. Can we hope that an additional 13% of the time 3 aces will win without improving? It's close...

I think that type of reasoning is correct, otherwise please correct me if I'm mistaken.

Edit: Oops, I didn't see that you picked up the nut-flush draw on the turn as well. That's a lot of outs and enough added equity to make your move +EV. My only concern then is that you had no way to know that there would be 3 callers behind you on the turn. With a strong high only draw and the low side already spoken for, you need a lot of opponents to provide the needed overlay for your side of the pot. Fortunately, you found them. Nice hand.

What hands do you think are more reasonable? I'm interested, because we could at least test who has what equity based on what you think are likely hands for them to hold. I dont think what they held was particularly favorable for my hand. They had almost all of the straight draws covered, which was the only thing i was vulnerable to.

Well, to be fair, there's a fairly substantial pot _before_ we all start putting money in voluntarily in the pot on the turn. I didnt put in 25 on the turn, i put 20, and the pot was marginally larger than 100 (given action preflop).

I also dont have to fill up to take the high. I can make my flush, plus the 3 deuces, and there are several other "safe" cards that dont give me a nut hand (like you mentioned). I dont know how many safe cards there are.

[quote="Abbaddabba"][quote]I also dont have to fill up to take the high. I can make my flush, plus the 3 deuces, and there are several other "safe" cards that dont give me a nut hand.[/quote]
I didn't see the nut flush draw that you picked up on the turn (See the edit to my post above). As it went down, the situation was +EV for you, but you should still have been concerned about the necessary overlay from additional callers as I said above. This was a rare situation in that you got it all-in against 3 other opponents. If you were heads-up or even 3-handed then moving all-in would probably have been a mistake.

I agree that potting the flop and turn were not ideal. Actually, it was pretty bad in most situations

I just cant imagine folding the flop with that much action, and i cant imagine folding the turn with what is certainly an equity edge.

Getting free-rolled in this situation should be your prime consideration. Steve Badger has a very similar example on his website:


The only reason that situation does not apply perfectly to your hand is that the action was multiway providing an additional overlay for your high only hand. Otherwise, it's suicide. This is why you need to play the hand very defensively--check the turn and river and only call if you have proper odds (i.e., enough additional opponents) to continue.

I misread the hand a little, I though that hero was the first person putting money in on the flop. I would call that flop bet hoping to fill up but I would fold if someone pots behind me.

Same advice for the turn: check and if someone decided they like their hand fold. If 3 people decide they like their hand then I would call.

I did misread the hand but my overall advice to the OP was still good
- Your hand isn’t as strong as you think it is
- You have very little fold equity
- You are on a draw that isn’t big enough to initiate fresh money into the pot. Why are you betting? Your goal should be to try to draw cheaply.
- Furthermore you are playing for 1/2 the pot so you want opponents in the pot with you. This is a classic "pulling" situation. Don't bet pot when you are pulling.

TGold: Like I told econ_tim it is good to see you posting here. I think that the merger of ideas between 2+2 and FTP should be good for both forums.

Edit to add 4th bullet.