FCP,

http://www.fullcontactpoker.com/poker-foru...pic.php?t=28842

2+2,

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthre...=&view=&sb=5&o=

The choice is yours, my friends.

Wow

Smash, go ahead and PM this guy your Party handle. Let him buddy list you if that's the advice he's looking for.

"Shove this flop"? You're drawing to NOTHING. No matter what you make, you're dodging cards the entire way. Nut low, probably quartered. heart or pair kills you. Let it go.

But all the guy wanted to hear was his repot/push was right. That's it. And if the other guy had Ah3hJxJx, well, sorry. You just got destacked.

Smash, go ahead and PM this guy your Party handle.

They can't afford to play at 2k level. If they can, they will get killed fast, Smash has won 40k alone from Wintermute, the expert at 2+2 forum.

I don't care if Sklansky himself says Smash is wrong on this one. He's not.

You're PRAYING for a coinflip.

Just to make it clear, Smash. I treasure everything you contributed at the plo8 forum. Sometime the best advice and truth is hard to take by the many "ego-players".

Your avatar bothers me. Bah.

JEFF

I believe that. I just can't believe the people over there, especially "If this isn't your ideal flop, what is?" guy. Amazing.



This, I have to agree with. She has 2 ass cracks?

benwood wrote: "First, go back to the other site.Look up the guy who told you that this is an easy fold.Then tell him what a genius he is, & start playing with your new "buddy" whenever you get a chance."

I dunno about you guys, but I think a heads-up match between dank and Smash in PLO8 would be very entertaining to watch.

C'mon you guys, why didn't Smash's ugly midget avatar bother you guys but my beautiful 3-assed fair lady did? Not fair, because it was Smash's? I haven't shown her three tits yet....

Nah, midgets are da shizzle. 2-3 assed ladies are just creepy, dude.

EDIT: Must say, tho, the 2 asses on those new ladies could be nice. Good choice to replace.

OK, is my new avatar better now? Happy?


I don't really bother to post at 2+2 (I like them to play that way, EVERY TIME!), let's look at some stats first.

Js 5s 3c Ad 0.253
Ac 5d Ah 3h 0.747


Js 5s 3c Ad 0.327
Jc Ah Jh 3h 0.673


Js 5s 3c Ad 0.489
6c 5d Ah 3h 0.511


Js 5s 3c Ad 0.406
Jc Jh 5h 3h 0.594


Js 5s 3c Ad 0.365
4d 2d Ah 3h 0.635


Js 5s 3c Ad 0.445
3s 2s Ac Ah 0.555

and much much more, more than you know....

For those 2+2 experts who argue to push, they forget one fundamental thing here (yeah they are good at calculating the odds at chasing HALF of the pot). If Hero is against a solid button player, Hero either wins/ties for a small pot, or he's risking his stack to be 1/4d or scooped. Button has much more control over the bet size here, he could elect to fold to lose a small pot here, but if he has a monster say A234ds with hearts, A3JJ... he is in for a nice treat.

Winning a minimum while risking to lose a maximum is always welcomed at PLO8.

I don't play much PLO8, how much does this change if you have position?

If he pots it, do you fold/call/repot? (If repot, I assume you fold to another repot)

how much does this change if you have position?

If he pots it, do you fold/call/repot? (If repot, I assume you fold to another repot)

You need to restate your question in more details please. Who's he? Hero or the button.

I assumed "he" means Button here.

First, I won't even bother to bet on the flop because I wasn't last to act. Then if button potted it, I would fold because 1, I was OOP so I had little control over the pot size that I can win/lose. 2, I didn't have a huge edge on this flop so I don't want to risk my stack to win half of it or on a coin flip AT BEST against a solid player.

I would rather wait for a better edged flop for 3/4ing/ scooping because a lot of players will defend half of their pots, and they are so good at calculating the odds of defending their lows only.

Edited:
Now if I've played against Button before and knew that he's a very very poor player, then I would check call his pot-sized bet and see what's developing on the turn.

Jac, it took me three reads to agree with you. Your avatar makes me feel tingly. I like.

but even if our positions are reversed, I probably fold to the pot bet. I'd rather do that than fold to a heart or pair turn, or God forbid, repot an Ax turn ($36) and have to call the $72 river when the heart or pair comes. This is why I play limit, makes chasing more palatable. I'm fishy, so I stay where it won't kill me all at once.

Incidentally, if this WERE limit, I'm saying bet/call all the way to the river unless the heart/pair comes. That's how different FLO and PLO are.

We know he has A3 with hearts. If one of his other 2 cards is a 2,4,5 or J then we are behind.

FWIW, I would call his re-raise, buying an option to see the turn. I would pot any non heart that gives a low, check fold any heart except A (very surprising) or 3 which I would call down. I would chck call any non-heart high card.

I don't play much PLO8, how much does this change if you have position?


Yup.

The 2+2 PLO8 forums are laregely a joke and largely why the games on Party continue to be so stunningly soft at all limits.

good luck.

.50-$1 PLO8

Dank has A 3 5 J from the cutoff. I open limp, button calls, blinds call/check.

Flop is 2 4 J . 2 checks, I bet the pot, $4, button re-pots to $16, blinds fold, back on me, Dank...

Now, I'm no expert, and I honestly believe that there can be more than one right answer to many of the hands that are posted and commented on for this site, but that usually only pertains to limit games. PL and NL games are a totally different ball of wax when it comes to what the "proper" course of action is...

I copied the hand over without the suits, and look how the situation changes when you dont have to worry about those pesky flushes...

However, once you take those flush cards into consideration, it should be fairly easy to see what you should do here.

You have to call $8 right now. If there was no more betting allowed (say everyone was all-in with your call of $8), the following occurs (BTW, if the math is wrong, who cares, just fix it and continue with where I am going from this):

If you scoop, you win $24 by calling $8. (profit of $16 - ignore the fact that you put in $1 plus $4 before)
If you get half, you win $12 by calling $8. (profit of $4)
If you get 3/4, you win $18 by calling $8. (profit of $10)
If you get 1/4, you win $6 by calling $8. (loss of $2)

Now, you just have to figure out what the odds are of each of the above occuring, without knowing what your opponent's hand is...good luck with that.

So, after you have figured out what the odds of each of the above are, go back to the real world and figure out what the implied profits/losses will be, since there still is money to be used on the turn and river. Rinse and repeat.

I have no idea if any of that makes sense, so don't bother reading it (if you already did, tsk tsk tsk)

To me, if the flop was a rainbow, easy call or push, but since it wasnt, AND we don't have the flush draw to go with our hand, seems like an easy fold.

BTW - I don't think you should have bet that flop. 8)

Wow.

Im going to immediately stop reading the plo8 hands at 2+2. Not a single person thought it was correct to fold.

I'd love to see some evidence that Smash has won $40k off or Wintermute.

No big deal. As long as you don't call, you're doing OK, though a fold is preferred against a tighter player or maybe with no read. Against typical bad players, the 2+2 line is OK.
The more 2 groups argue about something, the less an issue it is.

Also - to everybody, I'd worry more about how much you are winning, rather than Smasharoo or anybody else...

I'd love to see some evidence that Smash has won $40k off or Wintermute.

Sure, let me pull out extensive records of games we've played, complete with hand histories. Wait, that still wouldn't prove anything. Let me contact him and the two of us will film a documentary detailing every hand history either one of us has of playing each other in front of a notary and the Pope, then mail you a DVD of it so that someone I've never heard of with one post can be satisfied as to the veracity of my claim.

Since I'm not going to do that you bassically have two choices:

One, you can take my word for it.

Alternately you can believe that I'm a 12 year old posting from a home for the mentally insane who's never actually played a hand and just has a rich fantasy life.

I really don't give a fuck either way.

good luck.

Touchy touchy Smasho. Your claim seems more than a little preposterous, especially since it wasn't that long ago that Party didn't even have the $600-$2000 tables. It is actually quite easy to post a screenshot of your winnings against a player head to head from PTO. How many hands do you have with Wintermute? What is his alias? Without a little more information your claim completely lacks credibility.

Regardless of what you think of the number of my posts, you obviously took the time to write your evasive response. For the record, Wintermute disputes your claim and says that NO ONE in his database has won more than 6K from him. I believe him because I know him, and because his claim, unlike yours is reasonable. Whatever you may think of him as a player, Wintermute posts honestly (the good and the bad) and backs up what he says.

For the honor of your forum, you ought to back up what claim about players from another forum.

You've been served.

I am one of the 2+2ers that followed the link over here, in fact I am the
guy. For the record I didn’t say this was the ideal flop I said:
which is correct.

First let me say that I am glad I found this site, I am always interested in O8 discussion.

Next let me say that both answers are correct. In a very tight high level game where all of your opponents are good players folding may be correct. However at the .5/1 level the players are so bad that IMHO this is an easy push. I think that assuming hero’s opponent has 4 perfect cards like A3JJ or AA35 is looking for MOB. At these levels hero’s opponent has a naked A3, or bottom 2, or a naked AA, much more often then A3JJ. I don't think you guys are taking into account how bad the players are at this level.

Yes there are hands that beat hero but there are also hands that Hero beats. I think that the opponent has hands that hero beats more often then hands that beat hero so pushing is +EV. This is especially true if you take into account the amount of money that is already in the pot. Just stating that there are hands that beat hero isn't enough. You need to make an argument that, taking pot odds into consideration, those hands are so much more likely then the hands that hero beats that pushing will be -EV.

If I was told that the opponent was a nut peddler then I would change my mind, but against the average .5/1 player I would push.

Welcome, Gooper.

Sorry I misquoted you. Wasn't my intention, just to highlight the opposite opinion from mine that existed over there.

Hope to hear from you more.

EDIT: Oh, and Mendacious... honor of your forum? Do you play D&D often? Jeez. Dueling pistols at high noon. Good day to you, Sir.

a truer statement hasn't been uttered. I post a lot at 2+2, but people seem to think that all of 2+2 is awesome, its not. THe PLO section is good when good posters post(mainly acesover), but the MHS NL section, most of the gujys just always defer to El D, ThaBadGuy, or Bruiser, the stud forum is good, but its weird, and the MTT section isn't what it used to be. Really the best forums are the HoldEm forums(except for micros, that forum blows). I'm not really adding anything here, I just wanted to highlight what smash said and to remind people that 2+2 isn't always a be all end all in all of its sections

To respond to a post that I think it's worth it.

You can't assume your villian(s) won't have legitimate hands just because it's a $100 table.

You can't assume your quality of opposition just because it's a 100 table.

You can't assume your villain(s) won't have A234, AA35, JJ35... just because your villain didn't raise preflop on the button.

You can't discuss pot odds in this hand because you simply don't have the odds, you don't know the stack sizes, you don't know you villains...

You can't list a range of your opponents' hands just because PLO8 is not a game of 50/50, it's not a game of gambling, it's not a game of exploiting small edges...

You can't assume it's all about criticism just because the suggestions at FTP are majorly geared towards folding.

You can't assume your villains are weak-tight just because they suggested folding.

You can't make incorrect assumptions at poker, especially PLO8.

You can, however, understand that PLO8 is not about exploiting small edges, it's not about incomplete information, it's not about putting all your money in on the flop just because your 55/45 favorite, it's not about winning/chopping a small pot while risking your whole stack, it's not about once you put your money in then you must win that pot back.

You can, however, ask yourself if your move is the right move, if you have really made the right decision, and if that decision is correct at all different levels.

I know it's hard to do. Sometime while I am playing at higher levels, I will like to mess around at the $100 level unless my opponents won my respect then I will start playing with them seriously. I know this is one of my leaks.

I'm not the one who has a picture of a dwarf as my avatar!

For all the suckling you do of Smasharoo, I would think you might have an interest if the guy is a lying braggart, or authentic.

Sans a read, which we don’t have, the average player at the 100 tables isn’t very good. Therefore it is more likely they don’t have a good hand.


Why not? Poker is a game of averages. Are you willing to put all your money in against a manic with KK on a K9522? You could be beat but the majority of the time you are going to win. Likewise, the majority of players at the 100 level aren’t very good.


I agree with that. I just said that it is more likely that he is playing a naked A3 or AA then A234 or AA35.


I have no idea where you are getting this from. I never even hinted at anything close to this.


I have heard this before and it doesn’t make any sense to me. Maybe you can clear up my confusion. I am willing to push all in with a 55/45 advantage every time. In the long run it will make money and it will generate action when I have 70/30 advantage. If I go broke so be it. I put my money in when I was ahead, that is what my bankroll is for.


Good point. Since it wasn’t posted I was assuming that they all had full stacks. You are correct though, we do need more info here.


You lost me again. Why do I care if my decision is correct at every level? The play changes drastically from the $25 tables to the $2000 tables so a correct play at 1 level could be incorrect at a different level. All I care about is if the play is correct at this level.


This one really confuses me. If I assume that there are 55 cards in the deck or I assume that my opponent always has AA23 wouldn't those be incorrect?

Overall I think that there are many different styles that make money playing PLO8. I play a very aggressive game so I hope you can provide a little insight into why a more passive game is profitable. I am especially interested in why you wouldn’t want to be all in with a 55/45 advantage.

Hi GooperMC, actually I am not responding at your posts at 2+2. I am responding to Gergery's, I think he's got some very good points but there are fallacies. I will try to respond to your responses later.

Actually although I may sound arrogant towards some 2+2 posters in this thread, but if you search this Omaha forum (and some of the old threads got switched to other forums) at ftp, you will find posts where I show my respects to Gergery, Ribbo, and even Wintermute.

The point is, you don't have to make it that hard on yourself. PLO8 is a game where there are many, many clear cut decisions to be made post-flop, and these are the situations you seek to put all your money in. It's really that simple. It isn't weak to fold what is at best a 52/48 advantage when villain (who is in position, remember) comes over the top of you.

The fact that we at FCP and 2+2 have had such a thorough discussion on this hand illustrates its inherent ambiguity, and thus, why many of us at FCP advocate folding.

Also, we don't like to play for half the pot.

I'd say this is among the most asinine of your comments that I've read. The majority of regular posters in the 2+2 forum are winning players, and have (as close to) proof (as is possible) to back it up, in the form of PTO stats. While I don't believe that *any* of the regular posters there is a true PLO8 expert, we certainly do have a good understanding of how to dominate lower level party games.

Speaking of proof, I'm delighted to hear that you're bragging about having won $40k off me. Given that I have lost no more than just under $6k to any one alias according to my PTO database (which tracks my play completely from well before an exchange of these kinds of sums was made possible by introduction of higher limit games at the only site I play--partypoker), I see two possible explanations.

1) You have indeed won a net $40k off me, and have changed your online poker alias several times so that my PTO stats don't reveal the one player who is dominating me regularly.

2) You have won $40k off me, and lost somewhere between $34k and $50k to me, yielding a net win (or loss) of a much smaller figure.

3) You are lying.

A good rule of thumb in life is that the simplest explanation is most likely correct, so I'm leaning towards (3). However, if you want to offer even the first flimsy shred of evidence for your claim, just reveal any of my online poker aliases to the readers here. There are a handful of respected, indifferent players who know all my aliases and browse these forums; they can independently verify along with me whether you even know my online poker identity at all.

On another note, given that there is a strong likelihood that you are lying about this matter, I wonder whether your results are as good as one might be led to believe by the tone/nature of your posts, of which I've read a few. I don't doubt that you area winning player, but to claim you've won $40k off me in these games is so ridiculous that it surely casts suspicion on any other results-oriented claims you may have made.

FWIW, I do not preach a certain level of expertise without any proof of my level of competency. My results are publicized many places, for example

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat...ev=#Post2924434

The point of sharing my results is not to brag (mostly)--rather it serves as a barometer for others to gauge the value of my advice, better understand my playing style, and also as a personal measure of accountability... I find I play more carefully if I know I will share results with others.

"Good luck!" to you too, and looking forward to your reply.

Saying that there are better opportunities doesn't explain why your shouldn't put all your money in with a 52/48 advantage. The other opportunities will still be there regardless of how you play this hand, and in fact they will be every better opportunities because people will see you as an action player.


I don’t see why you have to fold in an ambiguous situation. It is poker, every situation is somewhat ambiguous. Yes I don’t have perfect idea what the villain has but I can put him on a range and it is more probable that he has a hand that I bet then a hand that beats me.


Hero isn’t playing for 1/2 pot. He has a very good 2 way hand.

Yes, yes you can. You can make lots of assumptions, because that is what poker is all about.

You sure can try to put your opponents on a hand.

It is absolutely about exploiting edges where you have them. You sure can assume people are weak-tight for not pursuing edges when they have them in a cash game.

"Good luck!" to you too, and looking forward to your reply.


There's not going to be one.

I could post screenshots of stats, or your party alias(es), or mine, but it wouldn't establish anything. I'm just totally burned out of internet ego wars, and I'm as guilty of them as anyone else.

Sorry I mentioned you by name on a forum you don't normally read in an offhand way.

You win, I'm a big filthy liar, or whatever the appropriate statement is that will satisfy your ego.

good luck.

That seems perfectly appropriate. Thanks.

That seems perfectly appropriate. Thanks.


Sure thing.

Thanks for the car.

good luck.

lmao.

it's like the chicken and the egg. There just doesnt seem to be a correct answer according to 99% of the population (it's the egg BTW).

Is Smasharoo a BFL?
Is Wintermute a car-supplying PLO8'er?
Will Rocketwadster ever figure out how to make money at this game?

So many questions...

Wow, Lame!

May I suggest for your next Avatar....

[img][IMG]http://show.imagehosting.us/show/704147/0/nouser_704/T0_-1_704147.png[/img][/img]


WORST BEAT EVER!

come on, regardless of whether the $40k is fact or fiction, smash's last response was fucking hilarious.

Wow, Lame!

May I suggest for your next Avatar....


Seem not funny at all. Not even vaguely.



Fucking genius.

This would be an object lesson in why some people get paid to write and why you don't.

Haha-- one of the all time funniest quotes I've seen so far

rainaruby, do you chat often and do you play 10/20 LHE 6-max at PP?

I knew this thread would be entertaining when I dropped the 40 kilo car bomb.

Very professional writing. Perhaps one of your keys is stuck from all the self-love you give yourself on the computer.

Way to leave visual part of the joke out. Did they teach you that at journalism school?

I don't know which is more flaming bs, you claiming to be a professional writer, or taking 40K off of Wintermute.

PS Comic books don't count.

Is Wintermute your gay lover, or do you just enjoy hopping forums to breathlessly defend your chosen man?

If it's the former, there's a few guys in General who would be happy to meet you.

I point out what a phony Smash is, therefore I must be gay. I see the logic. This explains a lot.

Very professional writing. Perhaps one of your keys is stuck from all the self-love you give yourself on the computer.


I'm dyslexic. You sick bastard, picking on someone's disability. I bet you kick crippled kids out of their wheelchairs, too, don't you?

What happened to make you so insecure, man? Your mother dressed you up like Shirley Temple until you were 35, huh? That's it, isn't it?

Man, I'm good at reading people.

good luck.

You made your point. Why are you belaboring it? Apparently, there are many here who don't give one good fuck about whether or not he's a phony. Why is it such a priority for you?

and is your Missouri address your third home?

JWeb, can you delete this post, or move it to General where it (now) belongs? The childish banter back and forth isnt helping anyone...