Okay, this guy has a VP$P of 12.16 (Yes, 12.16) over 119 hands. His PFR % is 1.54. I was thinking, ****. Smash system. Fold KK here?


Texas Hold'em $1-$1 NL (real money), #1,273,709,330
Table Topeka, 16 Sep 2005 10:33 PM ET
Seat 1: jap1103 ($24 in chips)
Seat 2: FoShizzleBoy ($90.10 in chips) is dealt [Kd, KH]
Seat 3: BenholioP ($100 in chips)
Seat 5: R K O ($16 in chips)
Seat 7: AMVegas ($161.30 in chips)
Seat 8: Styrishave ($107.60 in chips)
Seat 9: bamawildkard ($32.90 in chips)
Seat 10: Domako ($34 in chips)
ANTES/BLINDS
Domako posts blind ($0.50), jap1103 posts blind ($1).

PRE-FLOP
FoShizzleBoy calls $1, BenholioP folds, R K O bets $3, AMVegas bets $7, Styrishave folds, bamawildkard folds, Domako folds, jap1103 folds, FoShizzleBoy calls $6, R K O bets $13 and is all-in, AMVegas bets $100, FoShizzleBoy folds.

FLOP [board cards 10S,5H,JC ]


TURN [board cards 10S,5H,JC,4D ]


RIVER [board cards 10S,5H,JC,4D,7S ]


SHOWDOWN
AMVegas shows [ AC,KS ]
R K O shows [ QS,AD ]
AMVegas wins $91, AMVegas wins $38.50.
SUMMARY
Dealer: bamawildkard
Pot: $131.50, (including rake: $2)
jap1103, loses $1
FoShizzleBoy, loses $7
BenholioP, loses $0
R K O, loses $16
AMVegas, bets $107, collects $129.50, net $22.50
Styrishave, loses $0
bamawildkard, loses $0
Domako, loses $0.50

I was thinking I showed too much weakness by just calling the $7 with KK. I wanted to call this when he went all-in, but couldn't tell myself to click Call. I guess it's okay to isolate with AK, but his stats really scared me.

Would you fold?


****, hand after this my KK ran into AA. Nasty.

you play bad

Can I get an opinion from someone thats not short-run-oh-shit-i-would-have-won-kk-was-good minded?

Thank You.

your limp UTG was horrible, your call of the raise was even worse, and your fold to the allin was mind boggling atrocious, this is micro NLHE don't fold KK preflop.

I don't understand limping with kings and folding to a raise. Sure he's tight, maybe just a bad run of cards. What's 119 hands anyway?

Well the table was raising every hand. I planned on re-raising once someone did. I failed to do so and just called. And then he pushed all in and I folded like a baby. I see KK vs AA a lot, and figured that was one of these times. I push with AA in these situations sometimes and get KK to call a lot. Guess I made a big donkey-fish-newbie mistake. I'm learning. We're not all professional yet.

I'll give this guy some credit. Folding KK hands preflop posts show up about every few weeks, and this is the first one that Ive ever seen where the results were the opponent did NOT have AA. So you get some credit for at least being honest.

your pre flop play up until his all in was all wrong.

i disagree with the limp raise, but ok.. whats done is done..

I planned on re-raising once someone did. I failed to do so and just called.



did u have a seizure??


i dont understand that.

Was on phone. Phone very -EV.

well, u know what your mistake is, obviously... whyd u post this?

in a cash game, you can almost NEVER justify folding KK preflop. Only excetpion is if a person who you KNOW FOR A FACT is an absolute rock pushes in after a lot of preflop action.....even then it would still be a very tough fold. It sounds to me that you didn't call because you were afraid to risk that much money. Well, if you aren't willing to risk that much money on the second best hand...then you should not be playing No Limit Holdem at those stakes. Either play lower limits or play limit....

I knew not re-raising was an error. I didn't know whether I should have called all-in preflop with that type of player. His stats are scary, and that's what I was asking. Not asking if I made a mistake by not re-raising when I planned because I was occupied. But anyway, the whole hand was a mistake. A few hands later this saved me about 80 bucks by putting the guy on AA while I had KK. I called his value bets sneakily like I had a set and saw his AA cheaply. But of course I made a big mistake of not folding KK the second I thought he had AA.

I suck.

Are you always worried your opponent has the nuts on you?

Duh. Donkeys always have the nuts. Scared money is +EV.

scary stats?
what's scary is you base a decision on 119 hands.
Take the overlay the pot was giving you..and compare that to the probability of him getting AA..and then realize this:

YOU'LL NEVER MAKE DECENT $$$ IN NL IF YOU ARE NOT READY & WILLING TO LOSE YOUR BUYIN !

and this is from a guy who often bemoans the fact that he isnt a fan of betting in alot of borderline situations..


a pussy, if you will.


in jest!!!

Money grows on trees. I play to have fun. If I wanted to make money, I'd raise alpaccas.

Tommy, when you limped pre-flop, were you on the phone? I'm sorry, but the phone call is waiting when this hand comes up.

Let's say you carried through with your plan and limp-reraised $20-$25. Now what? You going to fold when RKO and AM go all-in?

Let's think of it this way...AM's all-in says, "I want to face the short-stack alone." If he's playing aces, he's probably not going all-in here unless he's playing smash strat.

I was playing with the OP the other day, and he folded QQ under the gun preflop.........HAHHA, what a wanker. This didn't really happen you guys, but I bet he would do that, HAHAH, ZING!!!!!!!!!!!!

I think the limp/re-raise is the absolute worst play in poker, right up there with the NL minimum raise. But, if you're going to do it, you should definitely follow thru with the raise. You had an excuse for not doing so, that's ok, but I think reading too much into the stats here is a mistake. This is why I think having the stats could be a little misleading. Yeah, he's tight, and doesn't raise, but that doesn't make his hand range AA only. Bottom line though is that this hand plays out way differently if you raise right away. I definitely reccomend that.

Folding KK preflop in micro HE cannot be justified EVER!! Err, unless the entire table in all-in in front of you.

Just go all-in it makes things easier.

[quote=Dan Harrington]I'm not good enough to fold KK preflop, and neither are you.[/quote]
[/quote]

U shouldn't call the raise there after limping in. If u reraised I don't think the ak guy could go allin. If he did... I'd call at these limits... He'll make that play with qq, kk, aa, ak. If we eliminate kk since the % of him having it is so small its negligble then its about 50% ak 25% qq 25% aa. U might not be getting the right odds, so it isn't a horrible fold.

The main problem is the fact that u just called the raises after limping in. U have to reraise here. Also, after u just called after limping, I would still call allin because he's overbetting the pot obviously trying to isolate the allin player. He probably wouldn't raise so much with AA here. U've concealed ur hand so well that he thinks ur weak... and because of this he forced u into a situation u were uncomfortable with. So, sometimes it's better to define ur hand for the other player to make it easier for u to read them.

Bah, I don't even play NL (much or well), but you're going to get much more deception with your big hands if you make your standard raise with those hands.

It looks to me like the only person you deceived on this hand was yourself.

Real bad

I played this because all of you donkeys said how bad I SUCK. Oh, and DN folded KK preflop too.. Welp bah. At least I saved a little face on here.






Texas Hold'em $1-$1 NL (real money), #1,284,518,038
Table Poughkeepsie, 20 Sep 2005 10:23 AM ET
Seat 1: nikki317 ($63.55 in chips)
Seat 2: old_hd_rider ($143.85 in chips)
Seat 4: indiejan ($192.45 in chips)
Seat 5: banksg420 ($95.50 in chips)
Seat 6: FoShizzleBoy ($52.70 in chips)
Seat 7: geezfosheez ($104.60 in chips)
Seat 8: nando85 ($69.40 in chips)
Seat 9: qaranta ($95.10 in chips)
Seat 10: catchdubs ($69.40 in chips)
ANTES/BLINDS
indiejan posts blind ($0.50), banksg420 posts blind ($1).

PRE-FLOP
FoShizzleBoy calls $1, geezfosheez folds, nando85 bets $4, qaranta folds, catchdubs folds, nikki317 calls $4, old_hd_rider folds, indiejan folds, banksg420 folds, FoShizzleBoy bets $6, nando85 calls $3, nikki317 bets $59.55 and is all-in, FoShizzleBoy calls $45.70 and is all-in, nando85 folds.

FLOP [board cards 3C,5H,3H ]


TURN [board cards 3C,5H,3H,QS ]


RIVER [board cards 3C,5H,3H,QS,10H ]


SHOWDOWN
nikki317 shows [ AD,AH ]
FoShizzleBoy shows [ KC,KD ]
nikki317 wins $10.85, nikki317 wins $111.90.
SUMMARY
Dealer: old_hd_rider
Pot: $124.75, (including rake: $2)
nikki317, bets $63.55, collects $122.75, net $59.20
old_hd_rider, loses $0
indiejan, loses $0.50
banksg420, loses $1
FoShizzleBoy, loses $52.70
geezfosheez, loses $0
nando85, loses $7
qaranta, loses $0
catchdubs, loses $0

How is this saving you face on here? I think you played this one worst than the last one. About 1 in every 24 hands with KK, you're going to run into AA, but you limped again UTG, and then you did another mini-raise. She almost played here AA worse than you, but you need to put in a good raise UTG. If you're going to limp, then you need to put in a stronger re-raise. Yeah, the results here were bad because of the AA, but it didn't make the play any better. I'd run and hide, the flames are only going to get stronger now that you think you saved face with a limp and mini re-raise.

If you are going to limp UTG (a move I absolutely have no problem with with Aces, but more hesitant with Kings) then you are doing so with a purpose.

The purpose is to induce a raise from someone acting behind you, and then you are going to make him pay dearly for raising you.

When that happens the slow playing STOPS - you put all your chips in...or, at the very least, overbet the crap out of the pot.

You don't slow play again with a minimum raise.

eg. blind 1/2...limp 2, middle position raises to 8, fold back to you, you gotta be betting at least 5x his bet, plus at least 1x for every other caller...and if someone else raises to say 20, then you're putting all your chips in.

this is why I prefer to do this move with AA and keep the standard raise for KK.

Didn't Doyle Brunson say about KK (or it might have even be QQ), "the day I fold this preflop is the day I quit poker"?


The preflop limp from UTG isn't a bad play - DB advocates it in both SS1 and SS2 for NLHE cash games, saying with both KK and AA he will usually limp from Early Position (not just UTG) hoping for a raise, and then put his chips in. But you need to follow it up with a strong reraise...or, if you just get called, then you need to be prepared to muck to an ugly board.

I don't quite understand your excuse.

How much thought does it really require to play KK preflop against multiple raises at low no limit tables?

You could be jerking off to porn, doing homework and talking to two people on two separate lines at once and it's still not an excuse.

There's nothing wrong with a limp raise if the table is nuts aggressive in late position when no one has shown strength. Just calling the raise is hilariously stupid though, and folding is even worse than that.

I dont think you could have conceivably played it worse.

Well, if that made the mouse sticky that could be an excuse.

[quote=HtotheNootch][quote=Dan Harrington]I'm not good enough to fold KK preflop, and neither are you.[/quote]
[/quote][/quote]


well said.

I never ever fold KK preflop. If someone has me beat, I pay them off. That's just the way life goes. If someone's lucky enough to have AA when you have KK, so be it.

Thanks to for all that you bring to the poker table. Lots of easy, easy, money.

there is MAYBE ONE situation in all of poker to fold kings preflop, and daniel felt he was in it. that ONE situation will NEVER occur in a cash game.