see what happens when you puss out and stop raising pf!

Tell me how horribly this was played.


Party Poker 0.50/1 Hold'em (8 handed) converter

Preflop: Actuary is UTG with Kd, Jd.
Actuary calls, UTG+1 raises, SB calls, BB calls, Actuary calls.

Flop: (10 SB) 8d, Js, Jc (5 players)
SB checks, BB checks, Actuary checks, UTG+1 bets, SB calls, BB calls, Actuary calls, UTG+1 calls.

Turn: (10 BB) Qd (5 players)
SB checks, BB checks, Actuary bets, Actuary calls, SB calls.

River: (23 BB) 9s (3 players)
SB checks, BB bets, Actuary calls, SB folds.

Final Pot: 25 BB

raise preflop and the whole hand plays differntly

actually, i don't raise that preflop UTG either. i prefer limping ATs/KJs in early position rather than raising (to invite a multiway pot and not be isolated against hands that i'm dominated against or quite behind to), but it's close and raising works too.

you MUST three-bet cold after checking the flop.

the Qd is a good card for you, but i don't a) lead out when i wasn't the last aggressor preflop, or three-bet it after someone checkraises it, as a straight or made boat is very likely here.

don't worry, all of us have our down days.

aseem

eh...raising kjs shoudl be pretty automatic and getting isolated isnt so bad...its an above average hand...

the flop has to be 3 bet/capped whatever they will let you bet...it was a monster flop for you but it is also a decent drawing board. turn play leads me to think you are likely behind so i like the river call

The queen isnt all that good. it gives anybody with the 910 the straight...and opens up more draws...a much better card would have been any diamond that doesnt set up straight draws...

Depends on whether it's a loose or tight game. Raise in loose. Call in tight. And, most hands that isolate us here aren't hands we like to see.

actually it would be the other way around, cause if its a tight game, then you can most likely take down the blinds, or at least have it be just you and the blinds, if its a loose game, then you want to get people in and you want to get in cheap.


I'm limping here PF btw mostof the time. I'd raise it up at 3/6 and higher. I'd lead the flop and pull a stop n go

Sklanksy canon supports what I said. :-)

I generally limp with that in early position too. I think I would raise on the 3-bet the flop though.

I'll back you up since there where like seven callers. Raise it there.

i totally agree.

having said that, i check/3-bet this flop. You're already getting action so start throwing chips in.

Chris, you raise this UTG in a loose game?

I agree with KDawg - I raise PF only if the game is pretty tight (or if the game is ridiculously loose, such that many people will cold-call with any hand they would have limped with). Otherwise, I limp in EP to try to encourage more people to enter the pot.

Duplicate post.

i raise everytime i think

Nice, except those time when several ppl will call and a late posittion player will raise. Then you can reraise. :-)

or maybe thats just me?

p.s. And sometimes you call because you get mega callers and some crazy person will go too far if you give them the lead.

:?

Calling and raising here PF are so close it doesn't even matter. I usually raise, because it makes it harder for opponents to peg me on an UTG raising hand (if they're paying attention at all).

I 3-bet the flop, since you have all those players caught in between.

Since you just called, I think the rest of the hand plays the way you played it.

and as a 2+2 poster, I can say that there are tons of posters there that disagree with that. Don't just rely on books to give advice with

tight/loose isn't everything.

i fold KJs up front in a tight, GOOD (aggressive, tricky) game.

i raise KJs up front in a tight, BAD (passive, straightforward) game.

in any loose game, i prefer limping it.

aseem

I fold there too. (But I generally try to find a better game in that case.)

amen. :-)

aseem

Oh, I'm not experienced enough to insist that it's "fact" or "right". Just quoting a somewhat respected authority in these parts. What are the arguments for going opposite to SSHE here?

If the normal acton for the table is for 5 people to see a flop for one/two bets, then I think you MUST raise this pre-flop. If it is an abnormality for that many people to be seeing the flop for one/two bets, then so be it. 8)

I already said why riasing with KJs utg works in a tight game. Ed Miller routinely goes against what he wrote in sshe, it is a book, not a bible or way of life

K, you know I'm joking with the 'canon' part, right?

And I see what you're saying about trying to steal/battle the blinds from early position. My question then is...why does SSHE advocate limping it in tight games?

I think I'm usually limping it (as opposed to raising it) from EP (particularly in loose games) and raising it from MP. So, I'm likely following your line of thinking. I'm just wondering why there's this discrepancy.