$3/$6 hold 'em, six-handed

SB is loose and slightly tricky (semi-bluffs, etc.), passive for the most part.

UTG posts to play, CO posts to play.
i have A 10 in the BB.
UTG checks, ..., CO checks, ..., SB completes, i make the easiest raise of my life, UTG calls, CO calls, SB calls.

(8 SB) Q 10 Q
SB checks, i bet, UTG folds, CO folds, SB calls.

(5 BB) 3
SB checks, i check.

on ANY river, i am betting if checked to and calling if bet to. (edit: except a king or jack... i am checking if checked to but still calling if bet to.)

thoughts?

aseem

I have no idea why you are checking the turn.

I'm baffled.

Seriously.

really?

this is a very easy check.

i would hate getting checkraised with a passion, and it's such a predictable checkraise against even the slightest "tricky" players.

if i get checkraised by the goods, i am drawing dead, so i might "easily" fold. but, i think i also get checkraised with air, in which case i risk folding the best hand.

aseem

This could be any T, any PP, and sort of straight draw, maybe even just a bare ace.

I think checking is horrible.

Like insanely horribly bad.

There's only more Qs in the deck, you're missing so much value.

i mean, not really.

you get just as much, if not more, value from checking and inducing a river bluff.

the risk of getting checkraised far outweighs the missed value.

aseem

I'll wait for some other replies but there's so many more hands that are going to continue playing other than a Q, and you have to make them pay while they still have cards to see.

KJ, J9, JT, KT...anything.

Just because you consider a player tricky doesn't mean he always has the nuts, in fact it means he has it less often.

I hate the check, but then again I'm usually wrong.

well, that's mostly the point.

i get raised both when i'm drawing dead and both when i have the best hand.

aseem

Ok, so 1 of 3 things will happen if you bet

a) he'll have some sort of hand like any ten, J9, KJ, a PP, a belly buster and he'll call the turn

he'll have one of the above hands but he will check raise you

c) he'll have a Q and check raise you

Doesn't it seem like more often than not, you will be putting money in with the best hand?

loosh, the point is that i want to show this down cheaply. getting checkraised on this turn sucks much more than you're understanding.

paying 2 BB more to Q-x when you're drawing dead sucks.
folding to 6-3 when he checkraises you sucks.

missing some value doesn't suck nearly as much as the above, especially considering that you often times induce a bluff on the river.

aseem

I'm betting this turn for value and to charge draws. I probably wouldn't worry about the Q much to be honest given that theres 2 out there, the chances of someone having 1 are decreased. I'd be more worried with only 1 queen out than 2. The majority of hands he calls you on the flop with are behind AT other than a Queen. Also, you want to be charging someone drawing to a straight and not letting them get there for free.

My line would be Bet/Call on the turn and call the river if bet into, otherwise I bet the every street if checked to. Too often, you'll be check-raised by someone with a Ten or pocket pair, so I don't like folding.

I think your losing value by not betting when there are hands worst than yours that are calling you down.

My line would be Bet/Call on the turn and call the river if bet into

Eeek. Goodbye 3 big blinds.

Who says he wont check a Q to you again on the river?

You say you want a cheap showdown and then say you are betting if checked to on any river. If you wanted a cheaper showdown you would check/call the river.

This is 6 Max. KT and JT can do the exact same thing.

Hello 3 big blinds!!

Aseem, if you play this hand this way, do you play AA or KK the same way by checking the turn? I'm not trying to attack you in any way, just giving you a differing opinion.

The reason I ask is because your AT in this spot is just as strong as having AA or KK albeit a little bit weaker on a QQX board. I'm guessing you would normally bet AA or KK when just called on a QQX flop and that you would also call this hand down as well if check-raised, so I see no reason not to play AT the same way when you've flopped what likely is the best hand.

now this is a good point.

i should perhaps check most rivers if checked to.

but, i think i said i would bet the river because i felt it would be much more likely that this is now a value bet.

aseem

The questions then becomes is this KT or JT enough to make it +EV for you? I don't play 6-max, so if you say the answer is yes I'll take your word for it.

without a shadow of doubt, yes.

aseem

I guess I have a different point of view here, but I actually like this flop for AT. QQT looks like a pretty good flop to me for my hand, so betting it for value makes sense to me.

I've seen too many players at all levels try to make plays for these pots when the board pairs whether they have it or not. I understand the reasoning of wanting to show your hand down cheaply, but I'd think your ahead here most of the time to bet your hand for value.

The point is that there are so many other hands that are going to play other than 1 of the 2 remaining queens in the deck. Checking here is WEAK.

6 Max is much more aggressive than full table and not betting the turn is a loss of value.

ok, let me elaborate.

against a known loose/passive, i think bet/folding is best.

against a loose/aggressive, bet/calling has strong merits.

against any sort of tight player, i think checking is far far far better than betting, and i don't think it's reasonably close at all.

against an unknown, i feel that checking is better than betting.

aseem

the more i think about it, the more strongly i feel that this isn't close.

our hand has sooo much showdown value, and betting when we get checkraised sooo often is -EV.

inducing a bluff or inducing a worse hand to call when they would fold to a turn bet has so much value.

aseem

I don't really have anything to add here, just saying that I'm anxious to see more feedback on this thread as well because I see this situation a lot and always feel unsure of what to do.

I guess we can respectfully disagree on this hand. I would Bet/Fold against some particular opponents who are very straight forward, but call down against opponents who are aggressive.

The check induces River Bluffs maybe, but I think your strongly discounting the possibilities of somebody having a Ten, pocket pair, a draw or even just a High Card hoping to hit. Any of these situations and we are betting our hand for value.

It would really suck letting a hand like JX or KX hit a Jack or king for free by checking wouldn't it?

Personally, I like this flop and the turn is a blank and would usually be confident I have the best hand here.

This is a hand where you may look like a genius and lose the minimum when he has a Q or pick off a bluff, but might not notice when you lost out on a bet or let a weak draw get there for free.

jay, i will think more about your points.

aseem

I don't see how you let the SB see a free river card.

Think about it this way. What would you complete in the SB with two posters in the hand on a six max table? Ax Kx Qx Jx any suited connector any PP.

Why you wouldn't bet here is beyond me. If he has a A K Jx and you let him see a free river you will be kicking yourself you let him stay in the hand and take the pot when he probably would have folded to a turn bet.

Even if he shows down the Q, can you really sit there and be worried about trips? It's almost like when the board is AQQ and you hold AA you are worried he has quads when he caps the flop and 3 bets the turn.

I auto bet the flop and auto bet the turn...especially a 3 of hearts turn. Even if you are check raised I see no reason to think it isn't A high trying to get you to fold. If you were in the SB with A9 would you check raise this turn thinking there is no way the BB caught a hand and you could get him to fold to a check raise?

aseem,

are you playing this the same way at 1/2 PP or against an opponent who is not "tricky" as you described in the OP

like i said, i am more inclined to bet when my opponent is either straightforward or loose.

this specific opponent was a little tricky, and he wasn't stupid postflop, so i erred (if at all) on the safer side.

aseem

i agree...i have only read to this post but man it seems u played scared on the turn...ur bet is going to be seen as a likely position bet...meaning that he could be putting u on ax and that u missed this flop...he could have called that turn with any number hands having just an ace, king , jack, or even a weaker king...even a pocket pair is liekly going to call in this situation...

if he c/r on the turn then you call down..but you missed a bet for sure on this...its 6max the odds are a lot different at this point.... ur equity is around 81% so u have to bet this pot...way more often than not you are wayyyyyyy ahead at this time

by just checking you gave him a free shot to improve his hand which he likely needs to do

i have been thinking more about betting the turn.

i just want to bump this to get some more opinions.

aseem

You should be more inclined to play AA/KK this way, because there are less cards that can hurt you on the river if you are ahead.

What I see is that you know he's tricky. You're pretty sure that if you bet the turn, he'll raise it whether he has the Q or not.

So the only question that matters is : what are the chances of him having a Q opposed to him having KT, JT... taking into consideration that, if he had AQ or KQ, he would have reraised preflop 6-handed (or maybe he's THAT passive ?) ?

I would bet-call the turn (if he raises) then check-call the river. This is probably right more often than wrong in this situation. checking the turn will lose more money than it saves in the long run.

I bet this turn.

Any J or K could give your opponent a better pair. An A/K/J/9/8 could give your opponent a straight. If an ace falls, and your opponent has one, you will either split/lose the pot.

Getting check/raised kinda sucks, but so does missing out on value from a weaker T, and giving a hand that has outs to beat you a free chance to do so.