i raise A ,J from EP. I get cold called by two unknowns.

flop is T62 with one club

i bet and get raised by the first cold caller. The second one folds and I call.

turn is the A

line?

I check-raise. The board isn't very coordinated (though the turn could have brought 2-spade flush), though it still isn't coordinated enough to worry me. If he had a 10, he probably thinks it is good and will continue to bet it. Your checkraise would be a drastic indication you have the ace, but depending on table image, maybe they have learned you're capable of doing this without the ace.

Another way to play it that might be fun would be to check, call his bet, and lead the river no matter what hits. Eh, that might throw him off, but I like my first line better.

if he's unknown, i bet/call this.

aseem

let me take a stab w/o looking....
helps me learn more...


Pot is 5.5 BB

I'll assume flop was rainbow, so no free card play by villan

66, 22 very possible, as is ATs, TT likely re-raises pf, but still possible.
55/77/(88/99 might isolate pf) hoping you are betting with missed overs also possible
KQ, KJs, trying to represent a set also possible...

hmmm.

Turn: Bet/Fold


EDIT: I see I'm "wrong"..oh well. I give him credit for a strong hand callling two cold, then raising the flop. What calls two cold with a 10 that doesn't have us beat now?

holllllyyyy shit.

bet/fold is really bad, actuary.

you give waaay too much credit to just a simple flop raise.

you also assume that anyone that calls two cold before the flop has a "good" hand.

play at a casino, you'll change your mind.

10-x raises us, 6-x us raises, 9-8/8-7/9-7 raises us sometimes, 9-9/8-8/7-7 raise us sometimes, etc etc etc. sometimes even just overcards raise us when they get fancy.

aseem

My line is:

bet/call
check/call

oh. Is Chris playing these at a Bellagio?
And online 15/30 is my play still horrible?
I might cry.

your line is pretty bad in just about any game.

you're bet/folding top pair to an unknown in an 8 BB pot.

aseem

In my games, I would save a lot of money not calling down with top pair when raised by an Unkown who called 2 cold pf.

At least it seems so.
Given all the $$$ I lose calling down against a Set or Two pair after they c/r or r the turn

I would bet/call and then c/c most rivers.
But I figure that's wrong because I lose sooooo much $$$ doing just that.
Thus I gave what I figured might be a better answer.
It's good to know what I actually do is better ???

Aseem: think about the hands I post. I'm never "Bet/Folding" here. Just usually losing $$$ calling down. lol

it's probably a case of selective memory.

you don't remember the hands where you win at showdown, or where you hit a better two pair (usually you have around 6 - 8 outs to do so) on the river and win at showdown.

aseem

check/call, check/call. Let him hang himself. I think a bet/fold on the river could work too, but I want a showdown

im glad im not the only one who just check/calls the turn

the reason i say bet/call is that a lot of passive or smart players check that turn when they are behind, and you both lose value and give a free card.

TOP says that when you're out of position with a marginal hand, it's almost a necessity to bet to avoid giving a free card away. i think this is the case.

aseem

can't rely on a book for every answer. This is certainly a WA/WB situation right now. What is the villian calling two cold with that we can beat, what is he calling with that we are ahead of. If he has a hand like JJ, QQ, or KK, we want him to think that he is ahead and gain bets from him. If he has a hand like AK, AQ, or A10s, then we don't want to lose bets to him.

the pot is pretty big at this point, and i'd much rather lose a bet or two from KK/QQ/JJ folding or to AT/AK/AQ than give a free card to Tx/6x/KJ/etc when he checks, risking the whole pot.

and really, i think you're being a little too tight on his range. if you're fearing AK/AQ and he raised that on the flop, he is easily capable of raising Tx again on the turn, thinking he has fold equity against your KK/QQ/etc.

most players are also too stubborn and don't give you credit for the ace just because you come out betting again, and i don't think KK/QQ/JJ are going anywhere. i mean, if you're not check/raising, you're not losing any money by bet/calling versus these hands, either.

the most important reason to me is just that i'd rather lose a bet or two at most of value rather than risk giving the whole pot away if he's either smart or passive and checks behind on the turn when he's beat.

aseem

im still strugglin on this..i think its either bet/call or check/call. Not having a read is a huge hindrence on making a more correct decision as i can see the pros and cons of both

bet/call
Pros:
1. If you bet out and he just calls u are probably ahead of his 10x and u are makin him pay to try and hit one of his few out
2. You are building the pot with the likely best hand
3. you arent letting him get a free pass to the river where he could improve his hand

Cons:
1. You are in trouble more than likely if he raises you again. and are possibly drawing dead
2. its going to cost you an extra bet to find out you were way behind
3. You cant be extremely confident that you are ahead b/c you dont have a solid read yet


check/call
Pros:
1. He showed strength on the flop which could mean set/a10 type hands which u are way behind or dead to
2. cheaper showdown if u are behind and are saving a bet
3. helps you to build a read on how aggressively he plays a monster hand if he is ahead or shows how aggressive he is with a marginal hand

Cons:
1. If you are ahead you are losing bets
2. if the ace didnt help him then he gets the free pass to the river to make a hand
3. you have to bet the river if he just checks and if he made 2 pair,trips, set then you are goign to get raised again which will cost another bet


the problem i have with c/r the turn is that yeah you may get an extra bet out of him but if he 3bets you then it is costing you 2 more bets than it could have if you had just check called. Any 3 bet usually signals that you are either dead or going to need a lot of river help...and against an unknown i dont think we have enough info to make a c/r be a real possibility
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well, I brought this hand up on the 2+2 ss IRC channel, and one guy I respect said to bet/call the turn and check/call the river if raised on the turn. Which really got me thinking. I just don't know what to put the guy on all things considered. I can't see a set here, cause he could very well reraise PF with 1010 and maybe 66, and I can't neccessarily see him coldcalling with A10s, but maybe he would. 77 could be very likely, and they would check through on the turn, so with all of that, I think betting works best on the turn

Easy bet call. The action thus far has defined hero's hand as overcards (which usually contain an ace). Even bad players will often check behind here, so checking is not an option. Also, the pot is too big for bet-folding.

i like bet/call too

thanks guys.

i ended up check/calling and then check/raising a blank river.

Smooth.

And bet/calling is better because? Gives less reason for him to fold?

the turn gets checked through way too often.

btw, villian showed QTo.

which is the other line that ak and I talked about, which is the line the more I thought about it kinda liked. I can't see 99-77 neccessarily calling a gaybet by you, and KK-JJ certainly will, but I don't think that KK-JJ will check through there, so you can extract a little extra from them

uh oh...