this might be a braindead moment, excuse me if it is.

four limpers, i limp J 10 on the button, SB raises, BB folds, limpers and i call.

(13 SB) J 6 2
SB bets, all four call, i raise, all five call.

(12 BB) Q
SB checks, three checks, guy on my direct right bets, i ...

is this a raise/call? i'm pretty sure i don't fold here, but tell me if i do.

aseem

I don't like the flop raise. THe pot is so big to begin with. Here you want to keep the pot smaller with this han, look to raise the turn

i specifically thought about that, but felt that it was a good value raise.

aseem

I agree with KDawg.

Sure, the raise on the flop is a value raise, but your hand is very vulnerable and a raise now can't protect it.

Given the way you played the hand, you should raise the turn if you're going to continue (which you should). The guy that bet into you will probably slow down unless he's got a monster, since you raised the flop too. This could set up a free showdown for you, and blast out all those hands that hurt your winning chances.

a raise on the turn doesn't do that either.


yeah, but if he has a monster, i'm paying more.


aseem

guys, i'm not "protecting" my hand anywhere before showdown.

this is a simple raise for value/information on the flop.

i think too many people are getting carried away with the "waiting for the turn" thing.

the ONE reason i can see for waiting for the turn is that three overcards kill our hand.

aseem

We most likely have the best hand, reverse implied odds are present. Such a card came on the turn that sends up a warning flag.

I'd rather pay one more bet on the flop to see if I get three-bet. I likely fold the turn seeing the overcard when I don't close the action.

But you're equity would be higher if a safe card came and you would be getting more money in the pot.



Good point. But the pot is huge...
Why did you have to bloat that pot ?

I also hate raising when I believe I have the best hand. :roll:

I don't think the reverse implied odds make it profitable to just call, when you could get 2.5 more BB in the pot with just one more sb raise.

i didn't...

aseem

Wow,
your online poker reading skills are so good you can tell when TPDK are good after a bet and 4 callers...



Your raise added 3BB to a 9.5BB pot. Well maybe you never inflated it, but you did pad it a little bit more than needed.

Sure you have an equity edge. You may win as much as with your hand. The thing is, you may not be ahead of the SB, and your raise isn't increasing your chances of winning. It's just making it more correct for your opponents to call the turn and try to outdraw you if you're ahead.

You have TPDK in a huge field. There are 3 overcards that can come to your pair on the turn, and a flush draw on the flop. I really like to wait until the turn before I start thinking of pushing these sorts of edges.

I'll admit I have trouble with these hands. You flop TP against a lot of opponents, then an overcard comes on the turn. I really don't know how to play this turn to be honest with you.

Wow, your online poker reading skills must be pretty bad since you don't know how to extract information from opponents AT ALL. Also, I didn't say I had the best hand. I said I believe I did, at the least point I have equity with tpdk, so I raise for value and information.



It's alright to not argue with people who might.

you took my quote of you out of context. you said that after we just call the flop, you weren't sure what to do on the turn, and joked about why i bloated the pot.

just a miscommunication problem--if i followed your advice, the pot would still be bloated regardless, and it was more SB's doing than mine.

no big deal,
aseem

this hand is standard up until the turn.

im really not sure what to do. I think raising has merits...but im not confident enough in that decision.

Good table selection. I think you should just call.

Gotta stop doing that... :oops:



I've said it before, I think Aseem's table selection skills are second to none.



Can someone explain to me why we shouldn't wait until the turn to raise? How is this different from the two overcards section of SSHE when you have TT (besides the fact we have more outs now, but less of a chance of being ahead)? Shouldn't we wait until our equity jumps/falls on the turn?

i dont have SSHE on me, but i'll look at the overpair section again. this DOES bring back memories, and i know that the 10-10 hand is very similar.

one difference i THINK i remember is that someone raised on the flop before you, and you cold-called instead of three-bet. with aces, you three-bet. you also didn't have any backdoor flush draw.

can we focus on the turn?

i was really at a total loss at whether i raise this guy's bet on my right, or just call. the more i think about it, the more i think it's a raise.

it cleans up my outs and increases my winning chances, and it's actually pretty monstrous in the possible occasion that the bettor is bluffing with air and i fold a better jack behind me. it also sets up a free showdown when i don't improve and he checks the river. also more money when i improve. BUT, i would be completely unsure what to do if i'm three-bet... at that point, i may be drawing either dead or to two outs or to three outs.

still, i think i like raising here.

aseem

I think its an easy raise. You'll likely get a free showdown if you want it and you get an extra bet or 2 if you hit trips or two pair. You also can get a better jack to fold which would be huge.

Folding is way too weak, so I'd raise it.

The more I think about it, the more it looks like a raise. But like I said, I am not that sure it is correct. I never know quite what to do when an overcard comes on the turn. I would like to hear some more input.