Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t200 (4 handed) converter

Hero (t1295)
BB (t625)
UTG (t2035)
Button (t4045)

Preflop: Hero is SB with [Kd], [Qd].
UTG raises to t400

payouts:

$50
$30
$20
$0

Read on UTG?

Most of the time, as weak as it seems, I'm folding. The BB is somewhat committed to the pot assuming you don't play and if you push here, you're almost certainly getting called by UTG (if not both the BB and UTG). IMO, you should wait for a better spot. Let the BB go out before you start gambling.

UTG very solid - u know for PP SnG's..
had not seen him bluff

no particualr read beyond that.He was among the chip leaders the whole time. Pretty active palyer..saw flops..but didn't get too involved

Alright then, I'd fold without giving it too much thought. I don't have enough chips to make him fold with an all in and if he's raising with a weak ace he's still ahead of us.

I agree with Swift, UTG is committed to calling an all in by the BB, and he was unafraid to raise in to the chip leader, so he is definitely ready to play this hand, give him some credit and hopefully take your $20 happily.

yup, i'd fold. i'd rather wait for an opportunity to be first in with J9 than come over the top with KQ in a situation where i have almost no fold equity.

fold

KQ is a top 12% hand 4 handed, and giving UTG a top 25% hand (I really dont think he needs to be that strong) and after working through the scenarios (which for some reason got lost when I tried to submit, and im not retyping it!) I get an EV for folding of about $13.88 and an EV for calling of about $16.50.

I did fold.
I feel pretty good about my chances in these, so that plays a part as well.

Unfortunetly BB goes all in..UTG calls.
And I would have won.

Then got 4th, eventually. blah.

Easy fold there, regardless of it being the bubble or not (if it was winner-take-all - fold, if all four win money - fold).

8)

What were the other hands? Were you ahead going in?

Do the math with your own assumptions on starting hands and see what EVs you come up with..I would be very surprised if you dont change your mind about whether this is a call or not.

Be careful about your assumptions on the BB though..if you enter and he's not heads up he isnt going to jump in so readily.

I'm not convinced it actually matters. I don't think now is the time to make a stand.

And what do you mean call pre-flop? I hate that play the most. Are you praying that the BB will fold for the 200 extra? On the flop are you then pushing regardless of what hits?

I would probably be tempted to go ahead and push here. UTG's raise looks like a weak steal raise to me. Notice that it is the minimum he can raise. I think if we push the BB probably folds unless he wakes up with a really good hand, even if he calls we may have the best hand against us. I think UTG probably folds to an all-in, don't forget, we can cripple him. He only has about 600 more chips, so we won't want to get into a major confrontation with his KJ or Ax or small pp. The way I see it, we're not going to last very long with our chipstack and these blinds anyway, so taking a chance at doubling up here is a good idea.

However, take everything I say with a grain of salt, I used to make most of my money on Party SnG's, but one of my biggest weaknesses was that I felt like I went out 4th a lot, so maybe it would be best to wait until we have first-in Vig on our hand. Bottom line, I think it's a close decision between push and fold and how you feel about playing the table with a shortstack. If you're comfortable at the table, maybe you don't want to gamble. Here I think we're a small dog at worst to any hand that calls us and we can make up for that with the fact that we have fold equity and there is dead money in the pot if we do get called.

I don't think we have any fold equity. If we push and the BB obediently folds, the original raiser will be getting better than 2-1.

Unless I'm missing something hes got 425 after the blind and could very well fold waiting to see if you get involved in a big hand and get knocked out. He can pay his small blind and the next big and small if he has to wait longer for you to die. So yes, I mean call, with some expectation that he will go all in, which you and UTG call.

If you think he pushes with anything it isnt going to change the EVs too much though,since then he's on a random hand and your top 12% hand destroys any EV he has.

And no, im not pushing with anything on the flop if BB is in the pot. A cooperation play is more beneficial to UTG then trying to knock you out too, unless he has a monster post flop. You will have a much better idea after you see the flop since 11 of the 18 hands better than your pockets have an A, or have a K and are suited. If rags flop and UTG isnt willing to play cooperatively you are very likely to be up against a big pair. Even a big A will cooperate.

To boil the math down, with a top 12% hand your EVs almost have to be higher playing then folding and leaving things to others to decide, but there is no reason for you to go all in yourself when in the vast majority of cases UTG will cooperate

BTW, while there is probably little difference between calling and putting the BB all in (but not yourself) there is a small advantage to letting the BB make the raise. That squeezes UTG since he doesnt know what you might come back with. If his hand is marginal at all hes out and your heads up against the BB..and if you wouldnt love being heads up against BB with him all in holding KQ then we are playing different games.

Coming in on the bubble is the result of one of two things...not being patient enough and letting the blinds do your work for you or being too passive and having the small stack rebuild.

In this hand you have the best of all worlds if you get the BB all in but no more.

You didn't give this kind of explanation when you first said you would call. It would have been easier to see your point of view if you had. I still don't agree though. You're really depending on the BB to cooperate with your plans perfectly, and then hoping UTG doesn't do anything stupid along the way.

I edited my last a bit, especially the last added paragraph.

I don't agree that we are relying on BB to cooperate perfectly..by just calling we're putting UTG under the most pressure if BB raises all in, and if BB is out or just calls we have position and a very strong hand going into the flop. We have taken control of the hand either way.

You have to pray that UTG doesn't have a real hand that he's willing to go with however if the BB does in fact push. What if the BB push and then UTG pushes behind him? That would suck mucho.

And we don't have position BTW, we are in the SB.

My bad on position.

Why does the BB pushing and then UTG pushing suck so badly...credit him with a very good hand, fold and let him knock BB out. Were slightly weaker then if we folded, but we're playing for 3rd with a fold anyway.

Not necessarily. You can still be playing to win.

The main reason to fold is simply that you don't have enough chips to make UTG fold if you push. You are behind to even a weak ace here and will have to draw the best hand. Add the fact that the BB may want to get involved, and I don't think this is that difficult a fold.

I frankly hate the idea of calling and then folding to a pre-flop re-raise.

to disagree.

Not playing a top 12% hand is just too weak imo, and raising at this point not only serves no purpose, but could hurt if it keeps BB from playing.

I would probably fold here and hope BB bubbles out. Since your read says that the UTG player is solid and that you have not seen him bluff, then it's best not to mix it up with them. Also, the UTG raised 1st in in front of the big stack so he likely has a big hand and would call your all-in. There's a good chance your dominated or at the very best a coin flip based on the range of hands this type of player is going to play in this situation. Besides, if he and the big stack are the type to put pressure on the short stack then it may be best to get out of the way and let them.

- KEVBO -

I dont put him on a very big hand after a min raise, even UTG. He's OOP versus the big stack and with a strong hand is going to want to chase him out with a more normal raise, instead of letting him in so cheaply and with a minimum of 7/2 odds if not reraised.

It doesn't matter if he has a big hand. You don't have any fold equity with a push. Frankly, that's the biggest reason I'm folding.

Even with the 2x BB re-raise from a solid player, there's not too many hands we're going to be a favorite against based on the range of hands they would raise w/ UTG into a big stack. Secondly, the 2xbb raise may be begging for a call or re-raise from other aggressive players. In addition, if you push here, the xtra 700 chips you put in will likely not push the UTG player off their hand anyway when the're getting at least 2.5/1 on the call so you will likely get called by the UTG player and be trailing. Not to mention if the BB calls after your all-in, then he likely has a better hand than KQ otherwise he would fold and let the two players lock horns in hopes that a player gets knocked out.

Calling here is not an option IMO. Either fold or go all-in and going all-in here being a distant 2nd option. Calling then going all-in after the flop probably won't work with the # of chips in the pot. If the UTG is a solid player then this move would be transparent anyway. Also, if you call and the BB goes all-in and the UTG and you call and there's no sidepot. Then if you miss the flop, going all-in would be silly.

JMO

- KEVBO -

ditto

- KEVBO -

I'm curious. Where do you draw the line and decide that folding is best here? K-Qoff? K-Jsooted? A-Joff? A-10sooted? A-9sooted?

Those hands are all pretty equivalent, and around the bottom of the range. Given the lack of implied odds I'd probably cut it off at ATo, and not play A9s even though its a marginally better hand.