Hi,

I've been playing a bit of stud hi-lo 1/2 and 2/4. Just trying to learn the game. I know the basic strategies, but I'm just wondering what adjustments I should make for playing 3/4 handed and heads up. Thinking in terms of starting hands, which hands to push on 4th street, and so on.

Here's my insight on heads-up stud8:

Don't play it. The skill involved takes a huge backseat to the cards. The only winner will be the rake. :naughty:

Short-handed:

I find short-handed to be very simple to play (3-4 handed that is). With less opponents, you can (IMO) clearly see what you are up against based
on the betting patterns.
For me, unless I am the bring-in, I will only play 3 to a low, OR a rolled-up set, OR two aces (regardless of the other card).
If I have 3 to a low, and there are more than one low card showing, unless I have a chance to scoop with my low (ie three suits or one gappers), I won't play them.
Gladly give up your antee many, many hands in a row, until you have scoop potential.
8)
No idea if that helps...

Thanks for your help. Your suggestion is basically the starting hand strategy i use playing in a full game. But 4 handed, you're paying twice as much to see each hand between the ante and the bring-in. So logically you would have to loosen up somewhat, no?

I've been tending to play agressively with small/medium pairs and hands with an ace and one other low card. Often I can pick up the pot on 3rd or 4th if my opponents' boards are not too strong. I've actually done fairly well in these games, but I don't know if that's due to my play, or to my opponents just not understanding the game (or to dumb luck).

I'd be interested to hear from people with experience playing against tougher opponents at higher stakes.

One thing I should add is that in my experience, you must try to "steal" the bring-in and antees as often as possible, when you are to the immediate left of the bring-in and it has been folded around to you. Only do this if you consider yourself to have good "post flop" skills (there is no flop in this game, but I don't know the correct term, but the concept is the same as in hold'em).

One final thought - don't try to play pocket pairs (even queens and kings) unless you have an ace showing. Way too many times have I seen pocket pairs go down in defeat, mainly due to bad opponents not realizing what THEIR opponents have, they end up chasing their low, and end up getting a wonky two pair or come other crap to beat the pocket pair. Use discretion...

If you want some good practise, come to absolute poker. There are a few good players (myself included...lol) and many bad players. It is hard to get a full game on that site for the most part, at any level, so most of the time I am playing short-handed there. 8)

I wasn't going to comment on your first post, but then you made this one too so I had to. You are actually playing way too tight.
You said only play rolled up sets? HAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHA
"sure let me wait a couple days so I get a rolled up set and once I do, since I haven't raised in like 2 days everyone is gonna fold anyways..."

Alright, I wasn't trying to be rude, but please re-evaluate everything you said

its short-handed...and a split game (hi/lo)...did you read my whole post, to see the whole context of the hands I advocate playing

here are my stats from absolute (majority of games played were shorthanded)...read them, then tell me if I am playing too tight

2943 session games at $0.50/1.00
showdowns won 72%
4th street seen 29%

are you sure you understand this game? if anything, I am playing too many hands :?

yes I read your whole post and yes I understand the game
By the stats you posted I'm pretty sure you play a lot more hands then you posted or you just get a lot of really good hands

I mean cmon, you said don't play 3 to a low unless there was a scoop possibility, now that's fine, but why the hell would you not play a hand like kk5 or q10q in a shorthanded game, I'm sure you do.
Also you said only play 2 aces and no matter what else is showing, how do you go from being so carefull about hand selections to all of a sudden play any 2 aces. Sure play a pair of aces, duh, but be aware of other cards, yours and others...
I'm pretty sure you play more hands then you claim or you are bring in a lot in a super soft game or just keep getting dealt good cards.

spoken like a true stud player who thinks they understand stud hi/lo :roll:

if you want to keep playing a pair of kings or queens, feel free, but I guarantee you that you will lose more money than you will win with them, when the guy who chases the low gets a pair of aces, two pair, trips, a straight, etc. 8)

Trust me when I say it is better to give up your .02 cents (the ante) with those hands than to try to win with them (not counting steals attempts of course if you and the bring-in are the only people left).

to help your game, I suggest you check out the stud hi/lo section of super system 2...hopefully the examples todd gives will help you understand the differences between the two games

I don't understand why you would rather raise with a steal then raise with a hand like j10j or 10108 (and these are very mediocre hands I am giving examples with)

hopefully with our banter back and forth, some others can chime in, but until that time, I will continue to tell you the same things:

you cannot play a stud strategy at stud 8 and expect to be an overall winner. This is the same reason why I cannot win at stud with the same strategy as stud 8. Scooping is the key, and you will lose money over the long haul by trying to muscle the pots with tens, jacks, queens, and king showing (for that matter, anything greater than a 7, including 8's).

if I raise with a hand like kk5 I would love someone to call me with like 268 hoping to make a lo, the key here is that they won't make a lo all the time, and most times your hand will be a better hi in the end.

A lot of hands will go like this

(KK)5
(26)8
Bet, call
(KK)5 3
(26)8 J
Bet, and yes you will most likely get called here on 4th
(K K)5 3 10
(26) 8 j 7
Bet, obviously he will call now
(KK)5 3 10 5
(26) 8 j 7 8
Bet, call, you see what is happening here? now you can only lose the hi if he gets another 8 (unless you improve yourself) and you'll split the pot if he makes a lo
(kk) 5 3 10 5 (ace)
(26) 8 j 7 8 (2)
bet, BLAH! CALL! DOH!

you see where I'm coming from?

yes, but you have used an example of a heads-up steal attempt, which if you read my post, I indicate it is okay to do...this is where I am thinking that you are misunderstanding the number of hands that I play (which is somewhere around 29%

Just so we are clear as to what I am suggesting when playing short-handed, I will try to explain my thoughts on why to NOT play a hand like a pair of jacks:

You: (J 2c) Js
Player 1: (X X) K
Player 2: (X X) 4 (bring-in)
Player 3: (X X) 8

Here,it is a clear fold, with a king yet to act behind you. Even if you raised here and the king folds, you are showing your opponents that you have at LEAST a pair of jacks. As well, it doesn't matter what player 3 does in the hand (call, raise or fold). It can get pretty expensive to put in a raise here, and a bet on 4th street, trying to get your opponent to fold, which they will routinely NOT do against your (at least) pair of jacks.

You: (J J ) 5
Player 1: (X X) K
Player 2: (X X) 4 (bring-in)
Player 3: (X X) 8

Again, I do not care what player 3 does in the hand (call, raise, or fold), as I have no intention of playing this hand, UNLESS player 3 folded and I raised (which I would only do if I knew player 2 to be a folder of his bring-in with a mediocre hand). If the king re-raised, I would fold (don't put good money in after bad...I think T Brunson wrote that). If the king called, I would proceed with caution unless improved.

You: (J Ac) Js
Player 1: (X X) 3
Player 2: (X X) 4 (bring-in)
Player 3: (X X) 6

Even with the ace, I do not think that playing this hand will be profitable in the long run with those lows showing. If I had the ace showing, I would call the bring-in if Player 3 called, and would raise if player 3 folded.

Does any of this make sense? I don't think I have really deviated from my original post in showing the hands I play, so I hope it gives a better understanding.

Please check out some of my other posts in the Stud forum (like the one called "Pump until you meet resistance" or something like that) to get a better understanding of my thought processes in this game. 8)

Honestly, the more short-handed stud8 gets, the closer it becomes to stud. Once you get the feel of short-handed stud, it doesn't take much to transition to stud8.

I used to think that, until I started putting in the hundreds and thousands of hands that I have recently at the smaller limits (o.25/0.50 and 0.50/1.00), and have come to realize that it is fairly similar to no-fold'em hold'em, in that even though they SHOULD fold to your raise with a king showing for example when they don't have a good hand, they will call your raise on third, call your bet on fourth, and unless you improve, you have to slow down, giving them basically free cards to ge tthe low and possibly scoop you.

This is EXACTLY why I advocate my very tight strategy (see above), as you can gladly give up ten antees (plus the proportionate number of bring-ins) against 3 or 4 opponents, win one small (and sometimes it becomes large) pot and still be ahead. It's a game of patience...

Just last night, I was playing for only about ten minutes (as I had to feed my daughter fairly soon), and watched as someone had sat down with over $100 at a 0.50/1.00 table on Absolute (where the normal buy-in is less than $30). The table was short-handed (only 5 of us including myself). This person raised EVERY hand on third street, no matter what cards they had, or what their opponents had. This individual won many pots where the opponents folded, but lost the majority of pots that went to showdown, and was down about $10 in the ten minutes that I was playing. I played exactly 3 hands in that ten minutes, splitting two of them, and scooping one hand worth over $13. I am not bragging about this, as it really isnt something worth bragging about, but am trying to convey that the game is a game of patience. Waiting for your chances to scoop/freeroll for half the pot is a great way to play, especialyl short-handed. 8)

Well, yeah, if you play micro-limits with idiots the game changes. That's the same with any game though.

I personally dont consider 0.50/1.00 micro-limits, but many players do. I steer clear of the tables less than 0.25/0.50 if I can help it, and will play the $1/2 tables instead of the 0.25/0.50 if the opportunity presents itself (even though $1/2 is probably outside of my comfort zone right now), as there will be less players (IMO) that don't value their money (ie. it's only a quarter...) 8)

I think my short-handed strategy is sound at any level though. :shock:

If you even consider folding [JA]J, your strategy is really, really unsound.

Unless I am mistaken, I advocated folding it against 3 lows... 8)

totally different situation if I have position

a) position does matter in stud games, just not as much
three lows means you jam ever faster with split jacks. Short-handed it's not even correct to fold JAJ to a K complete, let alone low draws.

this is where I disagree (point - a pair of jacks (any pair higher than 7's with an ace other than aces I would probably make the same argument) is a terrible hand, expecially against multiple opponents. (It's different if the ace is showing.)
The ace makes it a better hand than say two jacks and a 4, but it is still a bad hand.
As soon as one of the lows gets an ace showing, are you still going to be jamming the pot if your hand doesn't improve? More often than not, your pair of jacks will not hold up to win the high, and if they make their low, it is you that will be chasing hoping for half.
Much better IMO to gladly give up ten of these antees in a row, waiting for a better opportunity to SCOOP! 8)

Not to be mean, but this is why you shouldn't be giving advice for short stud8.

On a full ring, I'd fold JAJ unimproved on 5th, maybe 4th if I were against two or more low hands that all caught good.

Short, however, you have the table crushed. A high pair dominates a low draw HU and still does really, really well against two low draws. You can't assume that you're up against three good draws by their showing, even if they call 3rd. At lower limits especially, people overplay low draws short-handed, completing with [84]2 or shit like that, or calling with [Q5]3. These are the people you get maximum value from.

it's my strategy, and from my experience, it works. There is nothing wrong with sharing this information (hence the forum in the first place). 8)

I agree that people overplay their hands all the time, ESPECIALLY at the lower limits, but WHY risk the bet on third, fourth, and fifth street with just a pair of jacks (for example), for more times than not half the pot? Scooping is the key in all split games, and if you think that betting out with jacks will get your opponents to fold an above-average number of times on third and fourth street at these limits, you are sadly mistaken.
Gladly give up ten of these types of antees waiting for a better spot...patience my friend...patience. 8)

I just checked out many forum topics at 2+2, and from the limited selection of stud 8 topics I perused that pertained to playing with mediocre pairs (ie. jacks), regardless of the number of players (except HU), the majority of the responses indicated that they are a fold on third street. Many 2+2 forum members are highly regarded in hold'em, but I am not sure about stud 8... 8)

I checked out SS2 Stud 8 section again last night, and with a big pair (ie. kings, let alone jacks) against multiple opponents going low, Todd suggests getting out on 4th street if two or more catch good.
I suggested getting out on third street, saving a bring-in (or a raise).
Looks like we (Todd and I) aren't that far apart.
8)

Well, I'm the one who started this thread. It seems to have generated alot of discussion. For what it's worth, I usually play my high pairs very aggressively, and it seems to work well. I'm hoping to win the pot on 3rd or 4th, but if someone catches two good low cards, I get out quick. It's like a pair of J's in hold-em. You raise with it pre-flop and bet out on the flop, but you don't really want to take it to the river unimproved.

I think rocket's strategy would probably work too, since you can make huge amounts of money with a hand like 2 3 4 5 against KK94, and that's probably where most of your profit will come from if you're playing against guys foolish enough to call you down with the Kings. But folding a pair of Jacks on third is obviously giving up some value in my opinion.

most people (myself included at times) in the games I play at have trouble getting rid of a pair of aces against an opponent or two going low, let alone a pair of jacks. :cry:

For example, just last night I started with (ace K) ace (suits irrelevant for this example), raised it up against the bring-in and one other caller with a 2 and a 4 showing. Both called, on fourth, the 4 folded to my bet, but the two called when they caught a 6. I checked it down on 6th and 7th, as the low had 4 to the low showing (but was not betting) until 7th. I never improved from a pair of aces, and the low caught 2 pair. Should I have called on 7th?

Had my pair been jacks, I never would have played it at all (unless I had an ace to go with them); same with queens and possibly kings. :?