Ok, very interesting hand came up last night and i would love to hear some thoughts from the FCP crowd.

First to set the moooood.....

I am in the process, last night, of crushing a NL 100 6 max game on Empire Poker.

There are 5 people at the table. I have been there for about 3 hours and have a good read on most of the table.

I am sitting on the button for this hand with about 480 dollars in front of me. SB, who is very loose-aggressive, has about 125. CO, a real schmuck but a decent tight-aggressive player has about 175. Other players are irrelevant.

I am dealt j 10 .

UTG folds. CO makes it 3 bucks to go. I have been raising about every other hand for the last hour so I decide not to break character and I raise to 10. SB calls. CO thinks for most of his allotted time then he calls too.

Flop comes out 8 7 3 .

SB instantly bets out 15 dollars. There is now about 45 bucks in the pot. CO calls. 60 bucks in pot. Now what is the correct play here? I obviously have a very strong drawing hand. SB could have anything here the way he plays....my guess at the time was A8. CO flat calling worried me. He is pretty tight player and he only bluffed when he had position.

So what is the play here? call and see a card? big raise? I dont think you can fold.....but maybe I should have considered that too.

Love to hear people's thoughts and I will share the end result in a bit.

I think we should make a section for strategy.

Oh, "we have one," you say?



OP: I think you should have posted this there so that people like me don't respond to it.

I wouldn't have raised it in the first place, but I would fold there. btw.

god do I have to deal with this every time? I want to hear all people's take not just the few who post often in strat. I like to get feedback and maybe get a couple of funny comments from ron mexico as well.

I am a man of the people and my choice is general forum.

Oh and I realize the raise on the button was not necessarily a good play but I had been raising from the button pretty much every hand for an hour as I mentioned....so lets just focus on the rest of it pretty please.

i think its an obvious call - if you raise and original better goes all in you are screwed - could be a higher flush draw out there = neither has a ton of money to pay you off with - i doubt they both fold to a raise - you are just costing yourself money to see the next card if you raise

who are these anal fucks who care where stuff is posted? is the internet the home of millions of frustrated file clerks?

Ok, I can do that...

I would fold here.

why?

Just cause you learned to swear doesn't mean you have to call me an "anal fuck" for no reason. I believe I made it obvious in saying that you're gonna get better strategy answer there (and after I saw who posted it, I realized why he posted it here) and not dumb ass answer like I would/did give. Is that ok, pork slut?

Cause they're my cards and I'll do what I wanna.

Because I'm not going to get involved in a 3-way pot with a drawing hand that could be beat by AXs. This might not be the "correct" answer, but that's what/all you're gonna get from me on this...

do you really care whether he gets a better answer in strategy - sounds like you think its a dumb question

sounds like you'd rather act like mr poker forum and blaze on him for his lack of accurate posting etiquette which again baffles me - who really cares?

Call.


And I don't re-raise pre-flop, but you've already addressed that so I won't say any more about it.

I like a raise here. You were the aggressor preflop, and with position i think it's a good idea to stay in control. You will find out a lot of information be re-raising here also, and you will probably lose the person who flat called the SB bet post-flop. Even if the SB moves in on you after you make it 50 or 60 to go, you should call because you're the favorite over a pair and pot odds dictate you call here even if he has two pair or a set. If he moves in it will be 60 more to you in about a 180 pot so you will be getting about 3 to 1. You're getting about 2.75 to 2 with two shots on your straight or flush alone assuming your overcards arent good. Good luck.

well you were right he probably would have gotten a better answer in the strategy section

your a favorite to just about any hand here other then a higher flush draw or a set, i'm reraising here to isolate and be happy to take the pot down here and not terribly upset if i dont. doubt another player is going to push his chips with a higher flush draw on a reraise from you and even if you are up against a set at worst you are a 1:3 dog. you are a favorite to any pair, over cards, and even an overpair here.

did I just get insulted by a man promising to light himself on fire?

anyways, I did what you said keith and just called. 9 of spades hit on the turn (i was running nice and toasty all night) SB pushed (with queens), CO folded (dont know what) and I called and took down a nice pot.

Well how many outs do you have? You have 4 9's for the nut straight and you have 9 diamonds to make you the flush, give one out for over cards you have 14 outs, double that and add two do get percentage. 30% and you are getting 4-1. There ya go.

Wow, are you being anal?? No, I thought it was a prefect strategy quesiton, so I was being a nice guy and telling him he shoudl try and post it there.

Seriously, did someone piss in your Cherios?? Calm the fuck down.

READ WHAT I WROTE. I was ragging on MYSELF more than anyone. WTF?!?

why do you want to lose the other guy? either you hit and win or you're gone - i want him in since i have position - raising gets me heads up as a likely underdog

I would call here but be worried about a better flush draw.

I also agree that a raise will not get them to fold and just cost you more to see a turn card. (It may let you see the river for free though)

HAHA, no, I see how you took that the wrong way. I meant it cause of what you answered. You're more of a general poster and what dumb cracks along with you real answer.

Please, no one else take me the wrong way today. Thank you.

btw, nice job on the pot take down.

ok if this is the case i apologize - i stressed the first line and not the second - in general i just don't get all the people who go nuts on stuff being posted in the right place - if this isnt you I bow down and beg your forgiveness

DNA I like your advice more than what I did. I should have re raised. While my play worked out, I think I was too timid. The math clearly dictates I stay aggressive from what I see from the advice I am getting.


Thanks everyone for the help....

no worries. and thanks. Last night was one of those enjoyable nights when everything seems to go right. Good times.

You are counting the 9d twice.

You figure worst case scenario, he has 4 clean outs (any 9, with the 9d giving him the straight flush), 8 more possible flush card outs (minus the 9d), and a jack or ten _might_ be good as well (6 more outs). So anywhere from 4 to 18 outs. The only real hand he should fear here is a higher flush draw; against anything else he is getting the proper odds to call, and even if he is facing A-x or K-x of diamonds, that would make the jack and the ten live outs, so he would have 10 outs.

I'd say it's definetly worth at least a call; a raise re-opens the action, which you probably don't want, but that wouldn't be a horrible play either. It all depends on the table/players, and what their perception of your play is.

Patrick

It's all good. No need to bow down.

You're talking to the Off Topic Master here and you think I care where things go?? That's Mark33f's (or whatever his name is) job to worry about.

100% me saying that was so he would see more strategy posts. Than crap like me (us? :shock: ) BS about BS.

We cool.

Thos days still happen to people around here?? Crazy.

Just seems like everyone here is on a downswing, so that's good to hear.

PS. Been meaning to tell you for a while...love the location. I watched NFL Films everyday between class in college.

always looking for a fight, what the hell is a pork slut?

There was no fight. Just a misunderstanding. And a pork slut?? The next time you bring a girl home, ask her if she's one and see what she says.

love NFL films. My goal in life is to sound like John Facenda. (or James Earl Jones...I could listen to him read the periodic table)

the NFL network is a bit disappointing though. They can do better.

so that she immediately leaves? shouldn't I wait a few hours.

This is definitely a tough spot.

I don't think you have a "strong" drawing hand per se. Gut-shot straight draw (with 1 out to the straight flush) and 4th best flush draw.

I think I call and re-evaluate on the turn. I don't like reraising the flop. It's not a value raise and there is no need to isolate in this spot. Your hand, at this point is going to play better multi-way and it is almost impossible to chase out a nut-flush draw at these limits.

The only valid reason to reraise is to get a free card on the turn, but I'm proceeding with caution unless it's a 9 anyway.

What do you do if a low diamond hits the turn or river and one of the dudes comes out firing? Even tougher.

I know you didn't want comments about the preflop play, but another reason not to raise this button - It would be much easier to dump the drawing hand on the flop if the pot was smaller.

When I reach 6k posts, I will:


tease

hmm, ok makes sense. Now I like my call better. Definitely was a tough spot....at least until the 9 hit the turn.

With 4-1 pot odds it's an easy call unless you put someone on a better flush draw.

In a 6 handed game with 3 players, one a wildcard having a flop that leaves you with 4th nut flush, gutshot straight flush draw, gutshot straight draw, and 2 overs is a VERY strong drawing hand. Again its over a 50% favorite to just about anything that could be out there other then a set.

I can see the rest of your reasoning though.

The CO likely folded a better flush draw... you were in a raise or fold situation (fold), glad you got lucky though! :-)

Thanks! CO said he had 109 actually but I dont know whether to believe him because he and I were talking shit all night.


i think i figured out how to use swear words.....

I (sort of) agree with you. But in NLHE, sometimes you have to lay down the best hand. While all of your "outs" likely make you the best hand, if I pair my overs or make a flush with a low diamond on the turn, I'm not sure how I proceed if the villian(s) come out firing.

Hence the underestimation of this likely strong drawing hand.

The OP's hand is BARELY even ahead of AKo with a back door nut flush draw.

i'd do anything but just call...i'd rather fold thne flat call...i'd put in a decent raise ....







edit. just reread the post..i'd call here and see what happnens on the turn...

I gotta say that this pot needs to be raised. You can catch alot of cards and even if you do not catch any you might be able to fool your opponent into thinking you have a big overpair.

Actually, you have 12 outs (9 flush cards and 3 other 9s) against QQ, KK or AA, making you about even money with 2 cards to come. Additionally, you are a slight underdog to two pair, because the opponent has 4 outs for a boat. Though I've not calculated the odds you have of beating a set, a set has 7 outs for a boat or better on the turn and 10 outs on the river for a boat or better. You also have 1 out for the absolute nuts.

Also, a higher flush draw would very likely have correct odds to call if you raise, so a good player would automatically call with Ax diamonds. Going all-in, may or may not give your opponents correct calling odds depending on how much money is on the table.

The correct play is to go all-in. Since you are at worst a slight dog unless your opponent has a flush draw with better overcards than you or a set, you are getting very good odds when/if they call. More importantly, your opponents would have the correct odds to call with as little as top pair and an overcard (if they could see your cards) and this gives them the opportunity to make a mistake by FOLDING. They may think you have an overpair or set and fold.

going all in may be a pos ev move but i dont think its the highest ev move

I agree. You have TWO villians. And you want them to fold if you go all in.

They both called a sizeable preflop raise, one after raising himself. Depending on how loose they are, this could mean high pair, small pair (including one that would have made a set on the flop), and suited ace (everyone overplays suited aces at these limits).

Then one leads out and gets a caller before you.

I don't think they (both) are going away.

i am a big fan of raising here.. even against a big pokket pair you are a slight favorite.. also it would disscourge thoose who might have a higher flush draw.

No it won't. It should, but it won't.

That's a good way to lose money when the higher flush draw decides to gamble. This is a call and then reevaluate after the turn.