i did this and wasn't sure afterwards if it was correct, either because i missed value or because it was technically wrong to not protect.

$1 - $3 spread limit hold 'em, ten-handed

i get K J in middle position.
two guys limp, i limp, i think like two limp behind me, both blinds check.

(7-ish SB) A Q 10
two checks, one bet, one call, i CALL, two guys call behind me, blinds fold.

(6-ish BB) 4
the bettor checks, one check, i BET, three callers.

(10-ish BB) 4
one check, i BET with the intention of calling one and reevaluting against two, ...

aseem

I might raise to protect from something like a pair and a gut shot, or just a plain gutshot. But i don't mind the way you played it either.

one thing was that i definitely underestimated the players' passiveness in my haste.

online, the flop bettor bets the turn 90% of the time if no one raises.

i was completely planning to pop almost any turn, but that failed when the bettor suddenly shied down and checked a COMPLETELY brick turn.

aseem

Looks fine to me.

I sat down at a short-handed table today and got dealt J9o. Flop was KQT. I fast-played it and got lots of action on the flop. River brought the A and it got capped three-ways. JT and J5 split with me. :x

I would have raised the flop because everyone here is certainly calling one more bet, and with all the callers on the flop the first three limpers are going to be hesitant to be out on the turn.

I think you missed like 4 sb's or so but nothing huge, I could sense you weren't going to get much action on the turn or river.

huh?


I like it aseem your right online the flop bettor bets the turn a lot and then you can pop it, but no biggie still took down a nice pot.

I like the slowplay there on the flop. Nothing could come on the turn that would really scare you, unless the board paired (someone slowplpaying a set isnt going to fold).

I don't like it on the turn though. Giving way too many hands a way to beat you IMO (if river card pairs board), if one of the broadway cards hits, you will probably split, etc. Pop it now, Now, NOW!!! 8)

He bet the turn.

never said he didn't (or did I)...I think I said that I don't like a slowplay on the turn, so he should bet. Which he did. Well played. 8)

Why would you just call one additional bet on the river? The 4 isnt a scare card in the least. Someone would have had to have had a set on the flop and played it miserably weak, or connected for a second pair on the turn and played IT miserably weak. Both are less likely than some 'tard hitting trip 4's with his undercards and feeling it's good because no one showed any real strength earlier (which was the purpose of slow playing).

A raise and a reraise would have me thinking, but to one raise i'd definitely 3 bet.

I like just calling the flop with 4 people left to act.

Thing is, if all 4 guys call the flop bet (and the two callers in between the bettor and you fold), do you just call the turn too, looking for overcalls on a safe board?

no, the river call was way correct. i'd been sitting at the table for a few hours, i knew my opponents. the raise meant it, he won with Q-4.

and if the bettor bet out on the turn, i wasn't slowplaying it there. i'm raising for value, and more importantly just to protect my hand since the pot is now officially BIG and you want to take down the big pots right away.

the results sucked, but i'm still thinking the flop call was correct because my opponent didn't have the odds to chase runner-runner on me, and i allowed him to make a mistake according to the fundamental theorem (albeit he would have made a much bigger mistake if i had raised and he still called).

so what i'm torn on now is:

1. if i had raised, would i have gotten the same number of calls? would the Q-4, for example, still have called? (of course i WANT him to call)

2. if i KNOW that the flop bettor checks the turn and i lose my ability to raise, do i get more value out of raising the flop bet, or by just calling, which allows more people in but means i only get in one bet on the turn still?

aseem

You played it fine man, you can't win every hand. The fish are gonna keep on calling and suck out on you from time to time. Youll make much more money in the long run if you wait till the turn to raise it, which will pay for these stupid beats. Don't over analyze it. He's probably calling if you play it as fast as possible anyways.

I am baffled (because of the way you have it written...will someone invent a damn casino converter already...) as to who won this hand (I can see that it wasnt you).

You have shown the two blinds checking on the flop, then it is bet by someone in early position. You then say the blinds folded.

On the turn, you say the flop better checked, then called.

On the river, there is one check, you bet, then...

Did the first limper (from early position) have the queen 4? You talk about him making a mistake by calling, bigger mistake if you raised and he called etc. Seems to me (if I have correctly deduced who had the queen 4) that this guy is a moron (aka a guy who makes a ton of mistakes) who got lucky. :?

oh i'm sorry, i didn't finish the hand.

i bet, one guy folded, the next guy raised, and everyone else folded back to me and i just called. the raiser was one fo the two limpers behind me, he had Q-4.

yeah, i don't really care that i lost the hand, this isn't meant to be a bad beat post.

and i realize i make more money by waiting till the turn to raise it, but i can't RAISE the turn if the flop bettor doesn't BET the turn.

so, what makes me more money:

1. on the flop, the guy bets, i RAISE, and the hand plays itself out,

or

2. on the flop, the guy bets, i CALL (presume i get more callers behind me by not raising), and the flop bettor checks and i bet.

in other words, assume somehow that i KNOW the flop bettor will NOT bet the turn. this means that i can't put double the money in on the turn.

if i raise, everyone who's in puts in two bets on the flop and one bet on the turn.

if i call, everyone puts in one bet on the flop and one bet on the turn.

this means i get more value by raising the flop IF EVERYONE COMES ALONG. but, does everyone come along if i raise the flop? i'm not sure.

(as a side note, realize that this is spread limit, not fixed limit. the betting doesn't double from the flop to the turn.)

aseem

I forgot that it was spread limit, so I can now see that the queen 4 limper didn't do anything out of the ordinary

Well, I'll add my two cents since I was playing the 1-3 Spread Limit game at Turning Stone at the same time (not literally...but you get the idea).

I remember you told me Aseem to never slow-play in Spread Limit Hold'em because it makes absolutely no sense. Since the bets don't increase on the turn, you're not really gaining much from it.

Of course, in this example, you are gaining overcalls, which I think is your real issue with this hand. You're wondering if the Q-4 would have cold-called 2 bets. I'm thinking he would, simply because the players were that bad at the 1-3 Spread game at Turning Stone. Let me give you an example of my own from the game:

I'm in LP with AK offsuit. Three people limp to me and I raise it up to 4 dollars (max raise). CO cold-calls, BB calls, and every single limper calls. We see the flop 6-handed. Flop is QJ10, all diamonds (I have the K of diamonds). One of the limpers lead into me (for the max 3 dollar bet), and I raise $3 more.

Here is where this hand resembles yours. The CO, BB and one of the limpers cold-calls and the raiser calls. The turn and the river were completely blanks (offsuit 7 and offsuit 8 ), and every single one of them called me down. The pot ended up being rather huge for the 1-3 game and I raked it all in. What did they show? BB had J-8 for middle pair on the flop and a rivered two-pair. Only one of the limpers -- the one who led out on the flop -- showed Q-J for a flopped two pair. The CO only showed a 9 for a rivered idiot end of the straight.

I know this is a different example, but I think it serves to illustrate the point that people will call down with anything at all, even if it is two-cold max bets. I would raise the flop, just as I did with what I was certain was the best hand with my AK. Naturally, had I been re-raised I would have re-evaluated and gave someone credit for the flush, but the fact that people called down with their middle pair, two pair, and God knows what else when the board was THAT scary and coordinated really speaks volumes.

Thus...I think you're making more money at this limit when you raise the flop.