Party Poker 0.50/1 Hold'em (10 handed) converter
Preflop: Actuary is SB with Jh, Th.
2 folds.
Flop: (9 SB) 6c, Jd, Td (4 players)
Actuary...
Full Version: lhe flop top two
Lead out and hope that UTG+2 raises.
I lead here too. Make the other retards call two cold,
I c/r 'd.
UTG+2 bet, call, call, Me Raise, UTG+2 3-bet, call, call, I cap, 3 calls.
12.5 BB to the turn
turn was a J
Actuary(wets himself)....
UTG+2 bet, call, call, Me Raise, UTG+2 3-bet, call, call, I cap, 3 calls.
12.5 BB to the turn
turn was a J
Actuary(wets himself)....
QUOTE (Actuary)
Actuary(wets himself)....
But then of course the ace hits on the river and AA wets himself.
Just how big of a pot did this end up being, Mr. Pants Wetter?
30.5 BB, 22.5BB profit..my biggest win in a 7800 hands.
The turn bet was called by the other 3
I thought cheking the turn would be bad...given my pf check raise and no flush hitting here...decent chance it gets checked around
The River brought a low
and the Ace High flush helped me cap it. All pay 4 bets except the pf raiser, who stopped at two.
BTW, the Button had KK and let me to see the flop for 1.5 SB's. He called 4 bets as well on the river.
Back to the flop: Is leading out better than C/R ?
by leading out, if Mp2 pops, may help protect my hand against some flush draws. C/R builds a bigger pot, usually.
Given that even facing two bets, a good flush draw calls...I thought building a pot for those times I win UI or otherwise, was better than trying to get the others to call.
The turn bet was called by the other 3
I thought cheking the turn would be bad...given my pf check raise and no flush hitting here...decent chance it gets checked around
The River brought a low
and the Ace High flush helped me cap it. All pay 4 bets except the pf raiser, who stopped at two.
BTW, the Button had KK and let me to see the flop for 1.5 SB's. He called 4 bets as well on the river.
Back to the flop: Is leading out better than C/R ?
by leading out, if Mp2 pops, may help protect my hand against some flush draws. C/R builds a bigger pot, usually.
Given that even facing two bets, a good flush draw calls...I thought building a pot for those times I win UI or otherwise, was better than trying to get the others to call.
I really can't imagine why check/raising to trap people in for bets would be better than leading out and hoping to get immediately raised to thin the field. You have an extremely vulnerable hand on the flop and I dunno if you want to be playing against numerous opponents with it. Make people pay 2 cold to see the next card with their overpair, TPTK, straight draw, or flush draw.
Leading out seems to be the better play. Check-raising is like waving a big flag to your opponents, whereas leading out into the pre-flop raiser doesn't tell them shyte. Plus, it will usually get raised (by the pre-flop raiser), allowing you to 3-bet it, or wait until the turn to get 'em. Is it not the same as when you flop trips? 8)
you. can't. protect. against. flush. draws.
just pointing that out, it gets tiring to hear.
okay, so i'm going to take a few examples.
similar preflop action in each example.
let's say you have 8-7 suited. flop comes Q-8-7. betting out here is clearly better.
let's say you have 3-3. flop comes K-7-3. check/raising is clearly better (maybe even check/calling, but that's besides the point).
let's say you have 8-7 suited. flop comes 7-6-5. now the line is closer, but i think betting out is better than check/raising because you can really improve your winning chances if a 4-x or 9-x folds or if the preflop raiser is aggressive and you're in the lead heads-up against A-K but behind if another person stays in, etc. but, checkraising can be better if you know the preflop raiser has a big pair (e.g. low PFR%) or if you know that the other two guys in the hands aren't donks with 9-x or 4-x and they have big broadway hands too. again, this is close.
now, in your example, you have top two pair, but there is one key point:
your top two pair is made pu of broadway cards. this inherently means that your hand is vulnerable to a broadway straight draw.
betting out, having the preflop raiser raise and make AK/AQ/KQ face two cold now protects your hand against those gutshot draws.
OTOH, the pot isn't really HUGE yet, so you may prefer to build it up by check/CALLING and then betting out on a brick turn (if you again know that the preflop raiser will now raise your turn bet if no one shows aggression on the flop, which is the case against aggressive players... if the preflop raiser is passive, it becomes an even closer decision yet).
okay, before i continue, i want to recount a hand that was in last month's 2+2 internet magazine. it was one of the "on the edge" series articles by barron vangor toth.
he was playing in an extremely loose/passive game with a 2+2'er on his LEFT. the game had two classic conditions:
1. no one respect preflop and flop raises (when the bets were small).
2. everyone respected turn and river raises (when the bets were big).
he had J
9 under the gun and limped. the 2+2'er on his left raised, three people cold-called, the blinds called and he called. seven people for two small bets each.
the flop came J 10 
9 . when the blinds checked, for various reasons, he decided to check/call (i agree with his reasons wholeheartedly and you can read about them in detail in the article). the 2+2'er bet, everyone called, and he called. seven people to the turn for 1.5 big bets each for a pot of 10.5 big bets.
the turn came a 5 . when the blinds checked, he now decided he had built up the pot with a strong hand, but now that the pot was big, he needed to protect his hand (NOT against flush draws, but against weak straight draws, lower pairs with an overcard, against an overpair like the 2+2 had, etc.) and he knew that by betting here, the 2+2'er would raise, so this would be an effective way of protecting his hand.
so, he bet, the 2+2'er raised, everyone folded to him, he called, and he check/raised a brick river and took down a nice pot against the 2+2'ers pocket kings.
here's the link:
http://www.twoplustwo.com/magazine/issue7/...7/Toth0705.html
so how do i think this applies in this hand?
1. notice that the pot isn't tremendous. thus, you might not want to bet and force the field to call two cold YET.
2. how aggressive/passive is the preflop raiser? if he's aggressive (which it looks like he is...), a check/call-bet line would be very effective on brick turns. if he's passive, you're not going to be able to protect your hand later, so leading out might be better so that you can get it heads-up and just get sheer value from him heads-up.
3. the point is that your hand is vulnerable when you're up against gutshots and overpairs and whatnot. if you had bottom two pair or even top pair, betting out becomes correct much more clearly, since your hand is more vulnerable. if you have a set on a ragged board, betting out becomes wrong much more clearly since your hand isn't that vulnerable for the pot size. this is closer, but i'd say your hand is still pretty vulnerable.
all in all, i think it's a pretty close decision. my final conclusion:
- if he's aggressive, check/call-bet.
- if he's passive, bet out right away since this might be the only time he raises. while the pot isn't huge, it's on the big side and getting it heads-up and getting value out of him, while not as attractive as having everyone call the flop and fold on the turn to two cold, is certainly better than check/raising this, having him slow down and being able to make the field face only one on the turn.
aseem
just pointing that out, it gets tiring to hear.
okay, so i'm going to take a few examples.
similar preflop action in each example.
let's say you have 8-7 suited. flop comes Q-8-7. betting out here is clearly better.
let's say you have 3-3. flop comes K-7-3. check/raising is clearly better (maybe even check/calling, but that's besides the point).
let's say you have 8-7 suited. flop comes 7-6-5. now the line is closer, but i think betting out is better than check/raising because you can really improve your winning chances if a 4-x or 9-x folds or if the preflop raiser is aggressive and you're in the lead heads-up against A-K but behind if another person stays in, etc. but, checkraising can be better if you know the preflop raiser has a big pair (e.g. low PFR%) or if you know that the other two guys in the hands aren't donks with 9-x or 4-x and they have big broadway hands too. again, this is close.
now, in your example, you have top two pair, but there is one key point:
your top two pair is made pu of broadway cards. this inherently means that your hand is vulnerable to a broadway straight draw.
betting out, having the preflop raiser raise and make AK/AQ/KQ face two cold now protects your hand against those gutshot draws.
OTOH, the pot isn't really HUGE yet, so you may prefer to build it up by check/CALLING and then betting out on a brick turn (if you again know that the preflop raiser will now raise your turn bet if no one shows aggression on the flop, which is the case against aggressive players... if the preflop raiser is passive, it becomes an even closer decision yet).
okay, before i continue, i want to recount a hand that was in last month's 2+2 internet magazine. it was one of the "on the edge" series articles by barron vangor toth.
he was playing in an extremely loose/passive game with a 2+2'er on his LEFT. the game had two classic conditions:
1. no one respect preflop and flop raises (when the bets were small).
2. everyone respected turn and river raises (when the bets were big).
he had J
9 under the gun and limped. the 2+2'er on his left raised, three people cold-called, the blinds called and he called. seven people for two small bets each.
the flop came J
10 9 . when the blinds checked, for various reasons, he decided to check/call (i agree with his reasons wholeheartedly and you can read about them in detail in the article). the 2+2'er bet, everyone called, and he called. seven people to the turn for 1.5 big bets each for a pot of 10.5 big bets.
the turn came a 5
. when the blinds checked, he now decided he had built up the pot with a strong hand, but now that the pot was big, he needed to protect his hand (NOT against flush draws, but against weak straight draws, lower pairs with an overcard, against an overpair like the 2+2 had, etc.) and he knew that by betting here, the 2+2'er would raise, so this would be an effective way of protecting his hand.
so, he bet, the 2+2'er raised, everyone folded to him, he called, and he check/raised a brick river and took down a nice pot against the 2+2'ers pocket kings.
here's the link:
http://www.twoplustwo.com/magazine/issue7/...7/Toth0705.html
so how do i think this applies in this hand?
1. notice that the pot isn't tremendous. thus, you might not want to bet and force the field to call two cold YET.
2. how aggressive/passive is the preflop raiser? if he's aggressive (which it looks like he is...), a check/call-bet line would be very effective on brick turns. if he's passive, you're not going to be able to protect your hand later, so leading out might be better so that you can get it heads-up and just get sheer value from him heads-up.
3. the point is that your hand is vulnerable when you're up against gutshots and overpairs and whatnot. if you had bottom two pair or even top pair, betting out becomes correct much more clearly, since your hand is more vulnerable. if you have a set on a ragged board, betting out becomes wrong much more clearly since your hand isn't that vulnerable for the pot size. this is closer, but i'd say your hand is still pretty vulnerable.
all in all, i think it's a pretty close decision. my final conclusion:
- if he's aggressive, check/call-bet.
- if he's passive, bet out right away since this might be the only time he raises. while the pot isn't huge, it's on the big side and getting it heads-up and getting value out of him, while not as attractive as having everyone call the flop and fold on the turn to two cold, is certainly better than check/raising this, having him slow down and being able to make the field face only one on the turn.
aseem
i didn't actually address check/raising.
i think check/raising is effective as a variation of the check/call-bet line if you're up against a VERY aggressive player.
in the barron vangor toth hand, check/raising would have sucked because the 2+2'er would have slowed down had this happened. if you're up against a total uber-aggressive donkey, it's good because you can either:
- check, let him bet, both opponents call, you raise, everyone calls, you bet a brick turn, and he raises again (thinking that he is gaining value by waiting for the turn to raise).
- check, let him bet, both opponents call, you raise, he three-bets, both guys call, you call, you bet a brick turn, and he raises again (he is clearly very aggressive and does NOT slow down).
- check, let him bet, both opponents call, you raise, he three-bets, both guys call, you cap, everyone calls, you bet a brick turn, and he STILL raises (he is obviously a maniac).
if your opponent doesn't fit one of these three reads or you don't have a read, i don't like check/raising much at all. too many people slow down to the check/raise and now you can't protect your hand on the turn.
give the way this hand played out, though, i think your opponent DOES fit the middle read and so check/raising WAS effective (except that the turn jack then killed it, but obviously by then there is nothing to protect against except two outs at best).
my final point:
do whatever you think will allow you to build the pot as much as you can WITHOUT LOSING THE ABILITY TO PROTECT YOUR HAND ON SAFE TURNS.
aseem
aseem
i think check/raising is effective as a variation of the check/call-bet line if you're up against a VERY aggressive player.
in the barron vangor toth hand, check/raising would have sucked because the 2+2'er would have slowed down had this happened. if you're up against a total uber-aggressive donkey, it's good because you can either:
- check, let him bet, both opponents call, you raise, everyone calls, you bet a brick turn, and he raises again (thinking that he is gaining value by waiting for the turn to raise).
- check, let him bet, both opponents call, you raise, he three-bets, both guys call, you call, you bet a brick turn, and he raises again (he is clearly very aggressive and does NOT slow down).
- check, let him bet, both opponents call, you raise, he three-bets, both guys call, you cap, everyone calls, you bet a brick turn, and he STILL raises (he is obviously a maniac).
if your opponent doesn't fit one of these three reads or you don't have a read, i don't like check/raising much at all. too many people slow down to the check/raise and now you can't protect your hand on the turn.
give the way this hand played out, though, i think your opponent DOES fit the middle read and so check/raising WAS effective (except that the turn jack then killed it, but obviously by then there is nothing to protect against except two outs at best).
my final point:
do whatever you think will allow you to build the pot as much as you can WITHOUT LOSING THE ABILITY TO PROTECT YOUR HAND ON SAFE TURNS.
aseem
aseem
I think where I differ and likely am wrong is not considering top two to be all that vulnerable (the point about it being Broadway was good). Sure, I may not have 50% equity, but I have quite a bit more than 25%.
I saw the flop c/r as an equity play. To get more money in the pot when I have a better than 25% of winning.
I would have lead/call any brick turn, hoping for a raise from PFR. By then, the pot was big enough for anyone with 5 outs to call 2 bets (or less given implied odds), so again, it would be for value.
It's hard to go thru all this while playing..you multi-tablers astound me.
thanks for taking time to chime in, folks.
I saw the flop c/r as an equity play. To get more money in the pot when I have a better than 25% of winning.
I would have lead/call any brick turn, hoping for a raise from PFR. By then, the pot was big enough for anyone with 5 outs to call 2 bets (or less given implied odds), so again, it would be for value.
It's hard to go thru all this while playing..you multi-tablers astound me.
thanks for taking time to chime in, folks.
Is checking the turn an option?
Would it look like it scared me and give PFR a chance to bet out..thus I trap everyone for an extra bet?
Risks:
PFR checks, and so do the others
I get less action on the River, as I've shown two strong moves
Benefits:
possible 3 more bets on Turn
Would it look like it scared me and give PFR a chance to bet out..thus I trap everyone for an extra bet?
Risks:
PFR checks, and so do the others
I get less action on the River, as I've shown two strong moves
Benefits:
possible 3 more bets on Turn
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